I would agree with you for the most part. You want some challenges to remain in the game. This is why I think D1/Y1 had it so right. The weapons that allowed you to melt bosses like nothing were hard to get. You had to grind LONG and HARD hours to get them, so by the time you had them, you were ready to move on from the challenge and be happy to have a weapon that eliminated some of the challenges. They were hard to get, so for most players, the majority of the game was played without those grind-reducing weapons. That is why Y2 was such a mistake - it made the elite-tier weapons so easy to get that the game was a joke. If the challenge always remains the same, the game becomes repetitive, and even worse, tedious. Which is why lootgrinders offer endgame loot that allow you to wreck everything. And you enjoy wrecking everything until the next DLC brings new challenges to overcome.

I agree. The problem you run into then is all the people that complain that they paid for the game and can't unlock all the gear without doing a specific thing they don't want to do, or teaming up and they just want to play solo. People always complain, it is the one thing that can be guaranteed til the end of time. If something exists, people will complain about it. I do like the way you think, and making changes might benefit you and make the game more enjoyable for you, but I guarantee that someone somewhere else would complain that they liked it before and why would they ruin the game. I would like some of the hidden exotics like black spindle to be implemented, and they maybe will at some point. I'm not sure why they stopped doing that when they did because people seemed to enjoy those missions thoroughly. I would guess for the reason I said just a minute ago, because they get a bunch of people that say "why do I have to do this hard thing I can't beat alone to get a gun in a game that I paid for? I paid too, why can't I just have the gun??"

Yeah, I get your point. But the game they had in Y1 was addicting. Not flawless, but it was easily one of the most fun games I've ever played. Top 5, Top 3 even. Game disc never left my 360 until middle of HoW when I got frustrated with POE/Skolas and Bungie's shoddy netcode which prematurely ended a large percentage of my 35 runs. As for people complaining they're "locked out of content?" Bungie went out of their way stressing that this was a social game at the DRE. Its one of the few things I thought they did right with this game - make sure people are aware its a social game not intended to be fully experienced/completed without a team. Nobody is realistically locked out unless they decide they don't want to team up with anyone, or simply can't find a team (likely because of personality conflicts). I don't think these people have a leg to stand on anymore than the kid that can't unlock X gun in Battlefield 1 because he can't get Y number of kills with Z gun in PVP. The content is there just like anyone else. Just because you paid money for the game doesn't mean you have the right to go to the lighthouse or finish the raid, etc. The content is there for you to try all you want (and fail at all you want). Outcomes aren't guaranteed just by virtue of paying the admittance fee. The one argument they DO have, is that this game is set up to create barriers rather than help people get connected. One way they could solve this is by adding in optional matchmaking. In THAT context, they have a legit argument IMO. The bottom line is this: I don't want to impose changes on anyone that people won't enjoy, but I think they can certainly accomodate everyone at all levels of play, regardless of whether they are PVP or PVE oriented. They just need to separate the modes, let people use what they want, play how they want, and add in several different tiers of rewards so that every player at every level has something to play for. DE, which develops a F2P game - Warframe, has found a way to do this and without having the billion dollar backing Bungie has. They have 1/7th the staff of Bungie and yet they continue to find ways to do ALL of these things. So I find myself being entirely unsympathetic to Bungie when they claim they can't do this or that. They can. They just wont.

Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.

[quote]Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.[/quote] I like that too but if we want it to remain like that, as Bungie seems to want it to, then we need to accept a couple things. Either we need to accept that all weapons will be balanced first for PVP, which will make PVE very boring, or we accept that the game should NEVER be competitive in nature due to the fact that loot can influence outcomes, and just accept PVP for what it is: a fun, but not necessarily balanced or competitive experience. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and going with one or the other has its consequences.

I agree to an extent. I get what you are saying with wanting to feel like a superhero with a big gun that destroys stuff like in D1, and that was fun, but I have enjoyed PvE in D2 just as much as in D1. I think both can be enjoyable, it just really depends on what you are looking for in the game.

Exactly. And what made Destiny fun for me was the fact that it was a break from the ordinary shooters I was currently playing. It offered something VASTLY different that other games didn't offer. Co-OP, team oriented play, the ability to use heavy weapons/snipers as often as I wanted, grind for awesome gear, etc. To me, there is literally NOTHING that distinguishes D2 from any other shooter out there. In fact, it might be worse since it doesn't even do well what dedicated shooters DO do well - and the PVE play has suffered immensely for changes to try to make it play like a standard shooter in PVP. Again, not sayingit can't be fun, but the product no longer differentiates itself from other products out there. And quite frankly, If I'm going to play a pure FPS, I'd rather play one with a much better narrative and one that has a better PVP experience.

I can't argue with anything you have said, I still enjoy D2. You may be right about it getting boring after a while but I don't see that happening for me. Let's hope that the DLCs are big expansions like they are supposed to be and see where it goes. I appreciate that we could have a rational conversation and actually listened to each other's points. These forums can be pretty toxic and it is nice to have a conversation with someone here that resembles a real life conversation where we are both working on making things better, not just bashing each others ideas.

No and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. I'm not condemning you for enjoying the product. I just have my concerns about the long-term viability of the product in its current state. I think we both want the same things here, in principal at least. A fun, viable product that is durable in the long term. I think you still have a lot of hope for the franchise, and if this game/company/franchise hasn't beaten you down yet, good on you. For me, I've simply endured having too much taken away from the game to continue to support it. My criticism of the game, for all intents and purposes, is usually geared towards wanting them to fix the issues. Spend time fixing REAL issues rather than fixing what isn't broken, and creating other issues in the process. Good chat man, and I wish you the best of luck in your adventures.