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9/26/2017 4:40:39 PM
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DLC can't solve core issues though. It'll temporarily serve as a solution by adding in more loot to the loot tables, but once people have those - and by all accounts, it looks like they will have them all within a couple days - there's going to be nothing to chase after anymore.
You can't have elite-tiered endgame loot in this game for 2 reasons: 1) PVP balance and 2) Casual crybabies in PVE who will whine they're locked out of certain content and can't get X weapon.
Combine that with the fact that the game over-emphasizes primary gunplay over all else and the game will just get boring and tedious.
You've put in almost 100 hours in the game. But lets see if you last 10 times that on a similar amount of content we had by the time Y1 was done. I sincerely doubt it. Because there will be nothing to chase. The endgame in this game IS the PVP, and PVP games burn out after 6 months to a year. And THIS particular brand of PVP doesn't have casual appeal the same way Halo games did. This PVP is very much built for the hardcore, team-oriented players.
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"DLC can't solve core issues though." That is not true, look at D1's DLC and how it solved core issues.
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Yep, that is what I have been saying. Look at the difference in D1 from launch, as compared to when TTK came out. The game was much different before TTK.
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That depends on how you want to view the DLC. In Y1, HoW and TDB just added content and didn't really address core issues like your gear going obsolete with the drop of every DLC. That wasn't fixed until HoW (temporarily) and more permanently with TTK. I don't think they can fix core issues such as the lack of replayability without bringing back RNG perks, god rolls, etc. for guns. Even if they do this, I don't think the current dual primary system is conducive of long-term time investment for players, as primary weapons just aren't sexy or fun to use 99.5% of the time. I think they'll have to go to a D1 style loadout, at least in PVE, and such a move would require separation of PVE from PVP and/OR them giving up on their vision for Destiny to become a more competition-oriented E-Sports Shooter. I certainly don't see EITHER of these issues being addressed in the first two DLC's. The time for major overhauls will come late in 2018 when they drop their first TTK-Like DLC. And EVEN then, such changes will only come about if they fully understand that its the loot-based incentives that keep us playing/replaying this game, NOT the PVP. D2 seems designed to try to shift the game's replayability from PVE to PVP. They have to accept that that isn't going to work unless they're satisfied with the traditional FPS model where players buy it, play the crap out of PVP for 6 months to a year, burn out, and move on. You won't see a PVP-oriented Destiny with an over 1.2M stable player base that is ALL playing PVP after a year. It just won't happen.
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I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.
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[quote]I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.[/quote] This isn't an issue IMO. The point of a lootgrinder is to become a more efficient killing machine. They can always balance UP the AI's HPS just like they can balance them down to suit the dual primary system. The difference is that one system lets you use the guns that are TRULY exciting a lot more often than the other. Also, I don't believe balance is good for PVE. Balance may or may not be necessary in PVP in a lootgrinder (its debatable), but it has no place in PVE. The endgame loot should be rare, hard to get, and allow you to smoke bosses like they weren't there. That's kind of the point of endgame gear isn't it? You do the hardest content to get the best stuff in the game, and it actually makes playing OTHER areas of the game more replayable by taking the tediousness out of the game and reducing grind. That is where we were at in Y1 and it was a HELL of a lot of fun in PVE. The game hasn't been the same since TTK effectively took that formula out of the game.
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I get where you are coming from but for me, there is a lot more replay value in something that is difficult. If I can just melt a boss, I don't want to do that mission again. There is no challenge and it is boring. I'd rather have something like the raid that is somewhat difficult each time you do it so you can get better and better at executing what you need to do to make it easier. Not so I can get a gun that melts a boss then just walk through the mission.
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I would agree with you for the most part. You want some challenges to remain in the game. This is why I think D1/Y1 had it so right. The weapons that allowed you to melt bosses like nothing were hard to get. You had to grind LONG and HARD hours to get them, so by the time you had them, you were ready to move on from the challenge and be happy to have a weapon that eliminated some of the challenges. They were hard to get, so for most players, the majority of the game was played without those grind-reducing weapons. That is why Y2 was such a mistake - it made the elite-tier weapons so easy to get that the game was a joke. If the challenge always remains the same, the game becomes repetitive, and even worse, tedious. Which is why lootgrinders offer endgame loot that allow you to wreck everything. And you enjoy wrecking everything until the next DLC brings new challenges to overcome.
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I agree. The problem you run into then is all the people that complain that they paid for the game and can't unlock all the gear without doing a specific thing they don't want to do, or teaming up and they just want to play solo. People always complain, it is the one thing that can be guaranteed til the end of time. If something exists, people will complain about it. I do like the way you think, and making changes might benefit you and make the game more enjoyable for you, but I guarantee that someone somewhere else would complain that they liked it before and why would they ruin the game. I would like some of the hidden exotics like black spindle to be implemented, and they maybe will at some point. I'm not sure why they stopped doing that when they did because people seemed to enjoy those missions thoroughly. I would guess for the reason I said just a minute ago, because they get a bunch of people that say "why do I have to do this hard thing I can't beat alone to get a gun in a game that I paid for? I paid too, why can't I just have the gun??"
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Yeah, I get your point. But the game they had in Y1 was addicting. Not flawless, but it was easily one of the most fun games I've ever played. Top 5, Top 3 even. Game disc never left my 360 until middle of HoW when I got frustrated with POE/Skolas and Bungie's shoddy netcode which prematurely ended a large percentage of my 35 runs. As for people complaining they're "locked out of content?" Bungie went out of their way stressing that this was a social game at the DRE. Its one of the few things I thought they did right with this game - make sure people are aware its a social game not intended to be fully experienced/completed without a team. Nobody is realistically locked out unless they decide they don't want to team up with anyone, or simply can't find a team (likely because of personality conflicts). I don't think these people have a leg to stand on anymore than the kid that can't unlock X gun in Battlefield 1 because he can't get Y number of kills with Z gun in PVP. The content is there just like anyone else. Just because you paid money for the game doesn't mean you have the right to go to the lighthouse or finish the raid, etc. The content is there for you to try all you want (and fail at all you want). Outcomes aren't guaranteed just by virtue of paying the admittance fee. The one argument they DO have, is that this game is set up to create barriers rather than help people get connected. One way they could solve this is by adding in optional matchmaking. In THAT context, they have a legit argument IMO. The bottom line is this: I don't want to impose changes on anyone that people won't enjoy, but I think they can certainly accomodate everyone at all levels of play, regardless of whether they are PVP or PVE oriented. They just need to separate the modes, let people use what they want, play how they want, and add in several different tiers of rewards so that every player at every level has something to play for. DE, which develops a F2P game - Warframe, has found a way to do this and without having the billion dollar backing Bungie has. They have 1/7th the staff of Bungie and yet they continue to find ways to do ALL of these things. So I find myself being entirely unsympathetic to Bungie when they claim they can't do this or that. They can. They just wont.
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Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.
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[quote]Oh I agree that the people who say they are "locked out" of content really aren't. The only thing in D1 that I saw a barrier to getting was the adept weapons. Flawless was very difficult and it was the only way to get those guns (and the 5 and 7 win loot to an extent). Personally, I like that I use a gun in PvE and jump to PvP and it behaves and feels exactly the same. Not everyone thinks this way though and I know that. Bungie will do what they feel is best for the game as a whole, they aren't in this to fail.[/quote] I like that too but if we want it to remain like that, as Bungie seems to want it to, then we need to accept a couple things. Either we need to accept that all weapons will be balanced first for PVP, which will make PVE very boring, or we accept that the game should NEVER be competitive in nature due to the fact that loot can influence outcomes, and just accept PVP for what it is: a fun, but not necessarily balanced or competitive experience. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and going with one or the other has its consequences.
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I agree to an extent. I get what you are saying with wanting to feel like a superhero with a big gun that destroys stuff like in D1, and that was fun, but I have enjoyed PvE in D2 just as much as in D1. I think both can be enjoyable, it just really depends on what you are looking for in the game.
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Exactly. And what made Destiny fun for me was the fact that it was a break from the ordinary shooters I was currently playing. It offered something VASTLY different that other games didn't offer. Co-OP, team oriented play, the ability to use heavy weapons/snipers as often as I wanted, grind for awesome gear, etc. To me, there is literally NOTHING that distinguishes D2 from any other shooter out there. In fact, it might be worse since it doesn't even do well what dedicated shooters DO do well - and the PVE play has suffered immensely for changes to try to make it play like a standard shooter in PVP. Again, not sayingit can't be fun, but the product no longer differentiates itself from other products out there. And quite frankly, If I'm going to play a pure FPS, I'd rather play one with a much better narrative and one that has a better PVP experience.
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I can't argue with anything you have said, I still enjoy D2. You may be right about it getting boring after a while but I don't see that happening for me. Let's hope that the DLCs are big expansions like they are supposed to be and see where it goes. I appreciate that we could have a rational conversation and actually listened to each other's points. These forums can be pretty toxic and it is nice to have a conversation with someone here that resembles a real life conversation where we are both working on making things better, not just bashing each others ideas.
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No and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. I'm not condemning you for enjoying the product. I just have my concerns about the long-term viability of the product in its current state. I think we both want the same things here, in principal at least. A fun, viable product that is durable in the long term. I think you still have a lot of hope for the franchise, and if this game/company/franchise hasn't beaten you down yet, good on you. For me, I've simply endured having too much taken away from the game to continue to support it. My criticism of the game, for all intents and purposes, is usually geared towards wanting them to fix the issues. Spend time fixing REAL issues rather than fixing what isn't broken, and creating other issues in the process. Good chat man, and I wish you the best of luck in your adventures.
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I'm pretty sure I know where you are coming from and I think you just want what you think will benefit the game the most. I don't see any ill will toward anyone else with anything you said. I think we are in the same boat as far as what we hope with the game, having concerns and voicing them is a good thing, it's just that most here (definitely not you) seem to think that their idea is the only one that matters or that coming and saying "this game is trash, Bungie is trash, bla bla bla.." is providing good criticism. I understand your criticisms and concerns and you have real reasons for them, there is nothing wrong with voicing them and giving ideas for how to make the game better. Good talk, hopefully Destiny 2 turns out to be everything you hoped it would when things become more aligned.
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I dunno, I may be a bad example but I played PvP in D1 from the beginning to the end and never got tired of it. For me, it isn't about chasing some loot, it is about having fun and playing with friends. When I play, I'm rarely playing alone. Even if I'm in an activity solo I'm usually in a chat with some friends I met on Destiny joking around and having a great time. I get that I don't need Destiny for that, but Destiny is what brought us together in the first place. If you don't enjoy the game for what it has for replay value that is fine, but don't think there aren't quite a few of us that just enjoy playing the game.
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[quote]For me, it isn't about chasing some loot, it is about having fun and playing with friends. When I play, I'm rarely playing alone. Even if I'm in an activity solo I'm usually in a chat with some friends I met on Destiny joking around and having a great time. I get that I don't need Destiny for that, but Destiny is what brought us together in the first place. If you don't enjoy the game for what it has for replay value that is fine, but don't think there aren't quite a few of us that just enjoy playing the game.[/quote] You and I are a lot alike in that we both play to have something to play with friends. The difference is that me and my group of friends TRULY enjoyed chasing down elite-tier gear and godrolls in PVE, and using that gear in PVP. We cared less about the game being ultra-balanced and competitive because we accepted that in a lootgrinder, your loot is going to influence outcomes to some degree. We still had fun. And when the game removed our reasons for playing THIS game, we moved on to other group-oriented games like Warframe and ESO. Destiny has shown my group that it wasn't the game we enjoyed so much as the people we enjoyed the game with. And we don't NEED Destiny for that. We would ALL love Destiny to be that game though, believe me. But its not going to be that game unless it returns to basics and Bungie accepts/recognizes our reasons and motivations for playing the game. As for you playing D1's PVP and never getting bored, its incomparable to D2's PVP. In D1, you were powerful enough to have those highlight, splash moments, even if you were a committed casual. You always had guns to chase after if you wanted to play the meta. And you may like your current guns, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want a gun with a different roll just to try out. NONE of that will come into play in D2. It's going to be all teamshotting, all the time. It's going to be using guns that have mediocre rolls by design - no god rolls. And no taking chances because you will be punished more harshly for it. As a DIEHARD Halo fan, I can tell you that that kind of gameplay can only take you so far before the only people left playing the game are committed/sponsored MLG players or nostalgic fans who log on every great while to play a few matches. And the rest of the players move on.
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I think we are in agreement for the most part, I just think, by looking at DLCs in D1, that there will be some things added when the DLCs drop. I wouldn't be surprised if they add 8v8 with a DLC and call it something new. One of the reasons I say this is that on the Destiny 2 page in the Xbox store it says Destiny 2 is a 1-16 player game and I can't think of anything in D2 that is limited to 16. Social spaces and patrol areas allow for more than that, and nothing else comes even close to being a 16 player experience. I can't think of any other reason it would be labeled a 1-16 player game unless 8v8 was planned at some point. It is just speculation on my part but I do think there are things that Bungie is planning on adding so their DLCs are a little beefier.
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Adding a new PVP mode and a handful of new items to grind for doesn't solve the issue of replayability. Even games like Halo features 8v8 BTBmatches, and they still followed the normal ebb and flow of a traditional FPS. It wouldn't make the game instantly more replayable and instantly bring back the magic D1 had. If they want to bring back the magic of D1, they can start by abandoning their current approach to the game, port over everything from D1 - subclasses, loadouts, gear, etc. (since the new loadout system is gone there is no reason to leave behind everyones favorite stuff), add in RNG-lootbased incentives to replay the game, update the old subclasses with some of the newer abilities people like from D2 (replace Defender's vanilla Ward of Dawn with the Captain America shield ability), Have balancing roughly similar to HoW in PVE and PVP, separate Trials off from the rest of the game in terms of balance and gear, and that's just a start. But I can't even imagine them taking SOME of these steps with any of the first 2 DLC's because such changes represent a major overhaul. I don't think they will simply abandon their quest to make Destiny an Esport after a single month. They'll want to try to see how it pans out in the long haul, meaning significant, substantaive, and substantial changes will not come until their first TTK-like DLC, scheduled to launch sometime in late 2018. I've been wrong before, but I'd bet on the game not changing substantially until then, if at all.
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So basically you just want them to turn D2 back into D1? You realize how much hate that would get from all of the people that are already screaming "this is just a D1 reskin"? I get what you are saying and that you must have enjoyed D1 more, but D2 is a little different, and I personally enjoy most of what they have changed. I get that everyone has their own likes and dislikes, but most of the people on my friends list I have talked to that played D1 til the end agree with me that as a whole, D2 is a higher quality product.
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I realize they'd catch a lot of hate for it, but why change what people liked about D1? Seriously. Why waste time developing things for a game to try to make it new and fresh when those changes are ill received? Many of these changes aren't even changes we asked for. What we've been asking for this whole time is really simple. More content, separation of PVE from PVP, optional matchmaking, recognition and respect for the time we've spent in this game, more reasons to explore, etc. And what we have gotten is pretty much the polar opposite of what we wanted. Sure, we got more content, but we now have less reason to play said content than ever before so whats the point? [quote]but most of the people on my friends list I have talked to that played D1 til the end agree with me that as a whole, D2 is a higher quality product.[/quote] They're saying that now, but the game is less than a month old. Lets see if that holds true 6 months from now when people start getting burnt out and tired of seeing the same 5 legendary or exotic weapons drop and get tired of having no reason to do the raid, or when they're tired of the way PVP plays (every match being a sweatfest). The core issues are what they are and they won't change, in all likelihood, for at least a year. I wonder how many of your friends will even be playing this game when that time comes.
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I would guess most of them will still be playing. 6 months from now I think there will be 2 DLCs, therefore more weapons, loot, maps, missions, strikes, quests, raids, etc. You are judging what the game will be like in 6 months and only taking into account what is there now. That is the purpose of DLCs, to bring new content.
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I understand that, but without changing the core system, the new content will suffer from the same ailments the current content suffers from. Static rolls, repetitive drops, guns that don't make much difference in PVE, and therefore, PVE is more of a tedious, repetitive experience that lacks replayability. DLC will temporarily solve those issues by infusing the game with new loot, but the new loot won't be any better than the old loot - just different. It has to be that way to preserve the current PVP system. So that may be enough to keep you and your group playing, but for many others, it'll just be the same old crap, different day. Again, the DLC's will effectively be bandaids to large problems with the core design of the game - that can't be addressed without a major overhaul.
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Yea, I think we both enjoy the game for the same things, but for different reasons, if that makes sense anyway. It will be interesting to see what Bungie thinks they have up their sleeves, they said that they were planning events and such so there would be fewer, and shorter dry periods in D2. We'll just have to wait and see what that means.
