{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
9/26/2017 2:43:18 PM
49
It was to balance PvP. Weapon balance in D1 was almost un-achievable due to random weapon perks. I know what you are saying because I can't even count the number of times I ran The Undying Mind to get the perfect Imago Loop but PvP is much better off with set perks on guns.
English
-
Maybe they should keep pve guns out of the crucible, have the pve crowd grind random rolls for their weapons.
-
They could have done that, but if you have ever listened to Bungie talk about it they have said the feel it is very important for the game to play and feel the same in PvE and PvP. They want you to be able to run the same loadout on both and have it feel and react the same way.
-
I know they've said that but the truth is that they don't ever feel the same.
-
Lazy development.
-
It takes a lot more work to get guns balanced so they work both in PvP and PvE with the same stats than it is to just have PvP guns and PvE guns. If you have separate guns, then there is no real work to find a balance.
-
or just have two profiles on the guns, similar to how they have active bonuses on ghosts now.
-
That would maybe work, each gun has a PvP roll of perks and a PvE roll so they can adjust stat rolls for each game type.
-
The balance would already be in place and use the time you gain developing content :)
-
Yea, I get that. I enjoy being able to use the same guns both places though. If PvE and PvP had different gear, it would feel like two different games.
-
The problem is that doing this for the sake of pvp can turn a 1000 hour game into less than a 100 hour game. Destiny's 3 year cycle will cost you around $200-250 to play all three years if you pay the premium price. At that cost,D1 was a great value because most people dumped in 1000 + hours into the game because it had replayability. D2 lacks that, and therefore, its not a good value. Lets not forget that the game was intended to be an fps moreskin to an mmo - and bungie effectively accidentally created an fps lootgrinder. Pvp was a side activity. Who cares if pvp is unbalanced in a loot grinder? You cant have loot that matters in pve and loot that is balanced (basically, loot doesnt matter) in pvp- with a unified sandbox. The only way you will have purely skill based outcomes in pvp is if our gunas and abilities are effectively standardized. That is what D2 has done for the sake of pvp and its removed all the loot-based incentives to play the game in pve. That makes the game less replayable. Remember that a majority of players spend a majority of their time in pve. Imo, this is a major issue that eats away at the very magic that made Destiny so addicting over the last 3 years.
-
$250 over 3 years is cheap,also addiction is bad.
-
mmkay?
-
Its not about actual cost its about perceived value. $10.00 to go to a movie is cheap, but I don't go to a movie every friday night because Hollywood is producing utter garbage. Occasionally a film comes along that looks like it'd be REALLY GOOD, and at that point, I'm willing to spend $10.00 - because the perceived value there is greater. $250 over 3 years for a game I'll play for over 1000 hours? Tremendous perceived value! $250 over 3 years for a game I'll play less than 300 hours? Terrible perceived value. How you perceive value may be different in how I perceive value. But it seems logical to me that spending MORE money on a game I'll play LESS hours is a terrible value. I bought Skyrim Remastered and in almost a year, I've put in almost 600 hours into it - at a cost of only $60.00. And I can foresee putting MORE hours into the game as I decide to make more characters, play with mods, etc. That's a much better value than D2 at this moment. I don't care if its "cheap." If I don't think the value is there, I'm not going to spend it. At this point, those that are playing the game are, IMO, those who haven't been able to kick the Destiny addiction and judge the game for what it really is - or they're just stoked for D2's particular brand of PVP. But I still believe those players are in the minority.
-
Skyrim is an MMO correct? Destiny is not, it is several different genres of games mixed into one. A looter, MMO, FPS, PvP battleground, etc. The game tries it's best to cater to fans of all genres so of course they are going to fall short of some people's expectations. Some people expect a FPS and end up disappointed they have to grind for gear, while others expect an MMO and are disappointed there isn't more unique gear, others just want a PvP game and are disappointed they have to play PvE to get the guns they want. Still others just want a long campaign and are disappointed they have to play PvP a little and that the solo story isn't long enough for them. When you create a game like Destiny that isn't really one genre, it attracts fans of several different genres of games. When these people play the game, they all expect their favorite things from their genre of choice to show up in the game and when all their favorite aspects of their genre of choice aren't in Destiny, they are disappointed. People miss out on that this is a game that tons of people play, all for different reasons. Just because something in the game isn't catered for the way you like to play or the way you want it to be does not mean there are tons of people who like that aspect of the game, even though you despise it.
-
I agree with much of what you say here, but the game, since TTK launched has been sliding ever more towards being a pure FPS, removing loot-based incentives for playing/replaying the game. I don't think you can really ever call it an RPG, though it had RPG elements with class differentiation, but class differentiation has been watered down in D2 to make it easier to balance. After all, its MUCH harder to balance a defensive class or a support class with an offensive class in PVP - so all supers are now purely offensive. The problem isn't that this game appeals to so many different players from different genres. The problem is that Bungie wants to treat them all the same way. The player community is kind of like a farm, made up of different animals - pigs, chickens, cows, horses, etc. And the problem is that Bungie wants to buy ONLY ONE kind of feed for them all. And it simply doesn't work. Hay/straw doesn't feed the chickens or the pigs, and corn/grain may feed the pigs and chickens, but its not healthy for the cows and horses. They need to FULLY Separate the two if this game is going to keep everyone happy and they refuse to do it. Instead, they want to simply cater to the FPS crowd and pretend that they can just "make things work" in PVE. The problem is with a unified sandbox, if you make the game play like a standard FPS in PVP, you make it play like a standard FPS in PVE too. And nobody spends 1000's of hours in Halo's campaign - they buy that game for the PVP. What I think they should do? Separate the two modes, or abandon the quest for more competitive PVP experiences. HoW represents the height of balance between PVE and PVP IMO. Everything was powerful with the small exception of a handful of guns, and basically everything was viable. Both in PVP and PVE. The game was fun and addictive in both modes - but wasn't competitive in PVP. And that is fine. We don't NEED Competitive PVP for the game to be fun. The PVP just needs to be fun like it was for most of the metas during Destiny's lifetime.
-
I do agree with you for the most part. I think competitive PvP is pretty big these days though with the Twitch community pretty much keeping games relevant for longer periods of time. Tons of people watched streamers play ToO, many of which didn't even play the game. Having competitive PvP just keeps a little more attention on the game.
-
And that is fine. Then that points the finger to the fact that what we need is full separation. Not just between PVP and PVE but also between different kinds of PVP. There's no reason why the game can't play like D1/Y1 in PVE, like HoW's PVP in non-competitive, and like D2 in the competitive playlist. There is simply ZERO reason why competitive PVP needs to dictate how the game plays in ALL modes. Competitive PVP can simply be like the polar opposite of Mayhem. Stanardized loadouts (actually "rented" from the Trials vendor - until made permanent via trip to lighthouse), trickle, locked loadouts, no special/heavy weapons - dual primaries only. Then no matter what Bungie does for the sake of Trials, it won't impact the rest of the community - because it is effectively quarantined from the rest of the game. This resolves MOST players' issues with the game because people hated that Trials effectively dictated how the rest of the game would play for the remaining 90% of the community that didn't play trials. Dumb move. And D2 is just designed to disguise the fact that Bungie has no intention of treating Trials differently from every other mode in the game. What this means for the competitive Crowd? They can have their competitive experience without having to impact the casuals or the PVE fanbase that just wants to grind out for a crapton of awesome gear that kills more enemies faster and makes you go "HOLY SHIT!" when you shoot the gun. The issue? This has literally been an issue since Trials was launched in HoW, people have routinely brought it up, and its not something Bungie wants to do. And if they insist on favoring the PVP/FPS crowd so heavily as they have done for the last 3 years, they're going to drive away their PVE fanbase, and this game will follow the same cycles as other PVP oriented FPS games. One of the reasons why I think they won't actually do this is that they would have an issue with getting matches for the competitive mode. Most people wouldn't play it, just like most people didn't play Trials, and so the player population in competitive dwindles and you get tons of connectivity issues. Which, IMO, just goes to show that perhaps the demand for competitive PVP isn't at all as high as Bungie thinks/hopes it is.
-
You say all of this not knowing what is still coming. There is a DLC coming in like 2 months. I get that some people are running out of stuff to do but I have put in over 100 hours and the game is 3 weeks old tomorrow (30+ hours a week is a lot) and I just started my third character last night and I have yet to run out of stuff to do or get bored with the game.
-
DLC can't solve core issues though. It'll temporarily serve as a solution by adding in more loot to the loot tables, but once people have those - and by all accounts, it looks like they will have them all within a couple days - there's going to be nothing to chase after anymore. You can't have elite-tiered endgame loot in this game for 2 reasons: 1) PVP balance and 2) Casual crybabies in PVE who will whine they're locked out of certain content and can't get X weapon. Combine that with the fact that the game over-emphasizes primary gunplay over all else and the game will just get boring and tedious. You've put in almost 100 hours in the game. But lets see if you last 10 times that on a similar amount of content we had by the time Y1 was done. I sincerely doubt it. Because there will be nothing to chase. The endgame in this game IS the PVP, and PVP games burn out after 6 months to a year. And THIS particular brand of PVP doesn't have casual appeal the same way Halo games did. This PVP is very much built for the hardcore, team-oriented players.
-
"DLC can't solve core issues though." That is not true, look at D1's DLC and how it solved core issues.
-
Yep, that is what I have been saying. Look at the difference in D1 from launch, as compared to when TTK came out. The game was much different before TTK.
-
That depends on how you want to view the DLC. In Y1, HoW and TDB just added content and didn't really address core issues like your gear going obsolete with the drop of every DLC. That wasn't fixed until HoW (temporarily) and more permanently with TTK. I don't think they can fix core issues such as the lack of replayability without bringing back RNG perks, god rolls, etc. for guns. Even if they do this, I don't think the current dual primary system is conducive of long-term time investment for players, as primary weapons just aren't sexy or fun to use 99.5% of the time. I think they'll have to go to a D1 style loadout, at least in PVE, and such a move would require separation of PVE from PVP and/OR them giving up on their vision for Destiny to become a more competition-oriented E-Sports Shooter. I certainly don't see EITHER of these issues being addressed in the first two DLC's. The time for major overhauls will come late in 2018 when they drop their first TTK-Like DLC. And EVEN then, such changes will only come about if they fully understand that its the loot-based incentives that keep us playing/replaying this game, NOT the PVP. D2 seems designed to try to shift the game's replayability from PVE to PVP. They have to accept that that isn't going to work unless they're satisfied with the traditional FPS model where players buy it, play the crap out of PVP for 6 months to a year, burn out, and move on. You won't see a PVP-oriented Destiny with an over 1.2M stable player base that is ALL playing PVP after a year. It just won't happen.
-
I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.
-
[quote]I have said the same thing as far as weapon loadouts with going to the old weapon system for PvE and using the "two primary" system for PvP but then there may be issues with balancing power weapons so they feel powerful in PvE, but you can't just smoke a boss with two power weapons.[/quote] This isn't an issue IMO. The point of a lootgrinder is to become a more efficient killing machine. They can always balance UP the AI's HPS just like they can balance them down to suit the dual primary system. The difference is that one system lets you use the guns that are TRULY exciting a lot more often than the other. Also, I don't believe balance is good for PVE. Balance may or may not be necessary in PVP in a lootgrinder (its debatable), but it has no place in PVE. The endgame loot should be rare, hard to get, and allow you to smoke bosses like they weren't there. That's kind of the point of endgame gear isn't it? You do the hardest content to get the best stuff in the game, and it actually makes playing OTHER areas of the game more replayable by taking the tediousness out of the game and reducing grind. That is where we were at in Y1 and it was a HELL of a lot of fun in PVE. The game hasn't been the same since TTK effectively took that formula out of the game.
-
I get where you are coming from but for me, there is a lot more replay value in something that is difficult. If I can just melt a boss, I don't want to do that mission again. There is no challenge and it is boring. I'd rather have something like the raid that is somewhat difficult each time you do it so you can get better and better at executing what you need to do to make it easier. Not so I can get a gun that melts a boss then just walk through the mission.
