[quote] The mechanics in VoG and CE were "flexible" enough that if someone died, you could change strategies and continue the fight. But with Kingsfall, the mechanics were so rigid and so punishing that ONE mistake was enough to cause you to fail. [/quote] These two sentences sum up very well why I didn't really like KF (but I didn't hate it). With KF, I've even amend it to say that even if no one dies, if you -blam!- the mechanics up more than a tiny bit, you likely have to wipe.

Great points and post, but I still really enjoy both Kings Fall and US Open 😅 I also feel like people think they need to wipe WAY too often. I mean I understand that people don't want to sit and watch me play for the next 10 minutes, but if you don't want to sit and watch...don't die. Almost every group I've been in wants to wipe if one person goes down at Vosiks. And I always have to be like, "this is an easy 5 man. Just stay alive and we'll be fine." I wonder if that is because people got so used to that mentality in Kings Fall.

Some people do enjoy both.....not my thing though. I haven't had a chance to do that fight on Hard....but on Normal...its more like VoG than it is KF. People wiped like crazy during KF, because what was the point of continuing in a fight where the wipe was inevitable. Because you weren't going to do enough damage....and boss was going to enrage...and you're whole team was going to insta-die anyway. You were going to die. Just a question of whether you were going to die TIRED or not.

In reality if your team was running Black Spindle damage wasn't a problem if someone went down. Another poster mentioned this, but most people just didn't seem to know the Raid. You were lucky if you had 2 people that could grab gaze at golgoroth if you were in an LFG group. (And when I say grab gaze I mean both drop the orb and grab the gaze. It only takes one guy.) as a result I would do it 99% of the time. To use your golf analogy part of the problem is that most of the game (missions, strikes, NF) is like being at the driving range. You use whatever clubs you want and you just go at it. But the raid is like playing a round of golf. Now there are mechanics, and certain clubs become crucial for certain parts of the course. I feel like a lot of players (inexperienced raiders) just want to go in and use their driver even if they're trying to make a 30 yard shot from the rough. It's about having the right tools for the job, recognizing that, and executing. This is also why it makes me laugh when people get pissy about questioning someone's load out. I'm not trying to bully anyone or tell them how to play the game, but what do you think Tiger Woods caddy would say if he pulled out a sand wedge at the tee of a par 5?... just saying a lot of the problem was/is the stubborn nature of certain players.

Most people don't know the raid, because the raid mechanics were so unforgiving. With VoG or CE, those flexible mechanics made it possible for three or four strong players to carry an entire raid team. So if you could have one or even two people who were weak, and kept dying....and still manage to finish. Therefore people were much more willing on LFG sites to play with inexperienced players, once they knew the raid well. But with Kingsfall---unless everyone was armed to the teeth with the game's most powerful weapons----all it took was ONE player who was not holding up his end of the fight to bring an entire RAID to a halt. I saw that one nigh when I was raiding with a PUG team where one of the guys was clearly stoned. We were able to nurse his sorry ass along until we got to Golgoroth. But that's when we hit the wall. He just kept dying in the stupidest ways....and we kept having to wipe because we simply couldn't do enough damage to complete the fight without him. So, in response, people became VERY selective about who they played with, and I never played on a raid team that was ever willing to step into that raid with more than one new player. As a result it was extremely difficult for someone who didn't learn while everyone else was learning the raid early on to find an opportunity to break in. Which is why the community completion rates for that raid were so absurdly low. Speaking of Tiger Woods, I watched him win his first US Am championship in 1994 on TPC Sawgrass. That course is the signature Pete Dye STRATEGIC golf course. Its offers risk and reward....but also the chance of recovery from mistakes. In the afternoon of the championship match, Tiger was AWFUL from the tee. He just kept hitting drive after drive into the rough. On a US OPEN course, he'd have shot a huge number and been outo of it. But the set up for US AMs isn't so penal....and he ended up wining because he just kept hitting these amazing recovery shots from under the trees. Hooks. Fades. High shots. Low Shots that found their way out of trouble, and put him back in a position to score. This RECOVERY GAME is part of the skill of playing...and Penal golf (to me) is boring to watch because it arbitrarily REMOVEs this part of the game from the process. Kingsfall was the same way. It demanded perfection, and basically denied any opportunity for recovery if you were less than perfect in even the slightest of ways. To me that's boring to watch...and even more boring to have to put up with playing against.

Yea I'm with you, I do like how WoTM plays a bit more like VoG for many of the reasons you mentioned. But there is something about KF that I really enjoyed. I think part of it was that I really enjoyed how massive it felt and the artwork/style, and I thought Oryx was just such a cool encounter from a cinematic perspective. When you enter that last room it just looks awesome, and when he comes out from under the map, his body floating away in space after you kill him. It was all so dramatic. That part I think they nailed in KF.

Penal? Did golfers decide to obfuscate that word? Getting past that, I really like your description and assessment.

I rebuke your logic, accurate description and well though out explanations. This forum doesn't believe in any of those things. Why didn't you yell, "no it was easy Git good filthy casual!" That's a perfect example and the reason why I'm always so hesitant and wait so long to try the hard mode version of any raid.