Dude your not addressing a fix this isn't going to fix snipers but cover warlocks and hunters. Titan have juggernaut but the game should revolve around pleasing snipers.

As this arguement goes on there really is no simple way to fix snipers. They supposedly work as intended according to bungie. Adding more flinch could help and reducing base aim assist across the board could be a good start but year one never had aim assist problems and snipers were just as good back then. Stability would need to see a reduction. Descoping would reduce sniper usage overall to somewhere along the lines of nonexistant so i dont think that would be a good move on anyones part.

That only helps two subclasses and doesn't address sniper ease of use.

Titans have juggernaut, all 3 classes have at least one subclass capable of shutting down a sniper fairly easily by closing a gap if blink were to make a return. I agree snipers are fairly easy to use, however many people have been using them since the game came out and are just good with them. They did at one point adjust the range stat and the way bullets travel on snipers in taken king which could have caused the problems we face today with snipers as that was the only real adjustment they had seen, minus the scope distance which changed nothing. If that one tweak isnt the issue then snipers have been pretty much untouched since the alpha and nothing anyone says will justify a nerf to them. more people just use them because of how effective they are compared to fusions, shotguns and sidearms. If that is the case, then maybe those guns need a buff to be more in line with the effectiveness of snipers. I can say with certainty that fusions are already in a good place though.

Why does everyone use the argument they haven't been changed much? It doesn't mean anything. Who cares what they were like then what matters is how are they balanced now. Year one didn't have damage fall off, year one had two burst pulse rifles which I don't want to return, year one had two shot primaries with thorn and hawkmoon. All these things kept snipers in check but they were broken. Primaries actually function correctly now. Also snipers have changed. In year one vanilla they had much lower aim assist and there was a sharp distinction with low impact having higher aim assist. This changed with HOW when longbow and shadow of aim assist appeared and bungie compressed the archetypes. In year 2 they have been compressed even more to res snipe making sniper diversity almost nonexistent. Fusions, shotguns, and side arms. These are not the counters. They rely on movement speed which by map design is easily countered with sniping lanes and ease of mechanics to quick scope of body shot with one primary tap. Especially while under fire. The single most important thing to balance snipers is reducing their effectivness while under fire. I'm sick of snipers staying in the open because they know they can tank headshots no problem to drag off flinch and auto recenter. A massive flinch increase or descope would hurt pve so I'm personally for massively reduced aim assist and reseparation of the archetypes. High impact snipers should be lucky to see over 30 aim assist not regularly having 60-90. Hidden hand should be removed like shot package for snipers and on precision hits the sniper should descope or have massive flinch and reddening of the screen/reticle cracking distorting vision. This affect would be reduced as you go down in impact. Making high impact high skill and low impact more user friendly. This would finally restrict snipers to longer ranges without being able to snipe through machine gun headshots.

We use the arguement that they havent changed much because it is true, they havent. The game has basically changed around sniper rifles and everything else has been nerfed to the point where snipers rifles are allowed to reign above all weapons because bungie deemed those weapons nerf worthy, and snipers sit where they always have. At this point in destinys life cycle we will have seen nearly everything in the game get nerfed, and they will continue to get nerfed as that is what people deem is right for this game, and that is what is incredibly wrong with this game. If that is what you want to see happen im not going to stop you from voicing your opinion. If snipers get nerfed i'll live with it, and all snipers alike will live with it, the good players really dont mind, it just makes us use everything even better than we had to before, making us that much more annoying in game. Ive played through year one, ive dominated with a sniper rifle since the alpha, low aim assist and all and not even another good sniper, thorn,tlw,hawkmoon,suros or vex would stop me from decimating teams on a good day. A good sniper will always just be a good sniper, no matter the change. If you are looking for a reduction in the use of snipers in game then sure, reducing aim assist values and increasing archetype variety would be a good start. Removing hidden hand wont do much and Increasing flinch may curb the effectiveness of snipers but then we will all find a way to get unflinching snipers and then more problems arise and more nerf post are made. Every nerf has an effect on this game, and the player base will find a way around it and abuse the next best thing. A good sniper will not stop being good at point blank range or across the map no matter what changes happen. Id prefer if we were to start buffing weapons and subclasses again, this nerf mentality always makes the game less fun. Im the vast minority i guess.

Dude this is what I want, this is what I think everyone wants good snipers to shine and bad ones to get punished.

[quote]We use the arguement that they havent changed much because it is true, they havent. The game has basically changed around sniper rifles and everything else has been nerfed to the point where snipers rifles are allowed to reign above all weapons because bungie deemed those weapons nerf worthy, and snipers ait where they always have.[/quote] Then why bother stating it? What does it add to your argument that they haven't changed unless you are using it as a reason to rebuff everything? Which in my opinion as i stated before was a broken meta to begin with and snipers escaped it for the same reason sniping is popular in every fps. Views and publicity. Sniping gets views and bungie doesn't seem to actually want a primary based game. That's why I dislike the they haven't changed argument so much. It's meaningless without the context of wanting a return to no damage fall off, 2 burst weapons, and a near cod level ttk, which I'm vehemently against. The primary ttk is perfect to me. Making snipers not the only think left untouched, they were the only thing left still broken. The shotgun meta also ruled well into ttk even. [quote]At this point in destinys life cycle we will have seen nearly everything in the game get nerfed, and they will continue to get nerfed as that is what people deem is right for this game, and that is what is incredibly wrong with this game. If that is what you want to see happen im not going to stop you from voicing your opinion. If snipers get nerfed i'll live with it, and all snipers alike will live with it, the good players really dont mind, it just makes us use everything even better than we had to before, making us that much more annoying in game. [/quote] Thats what I'm doing now which is creating a meta I hate where specials are special because they kill fast [b]and[/b] are available instead of restricted like halo which balanced them being overpowered compared to some primaries. I have a heavy bias towards halo and I freely admit it. There are plenty of twitch shooters already and I don't want destiny to be one as well. [quote]Ive played through year one, ive dominated with a sniper rifle since the alpha, low aim assist and all and not even another good sniper, thorn,tlw,hawkmoon,suros or vex would stop me from decimating teams on a good day. A good sniper will always just be a good sniper, no matter the change.[/quote] Of course but they will be even better when they can abuse mechanics such as the ability to easily challenge while under fire which high aim assist exacerbates and easily drag scope at close distance. [quote]If you are looking for a reduction in the use of snipers in game then sure, reducing aim assist values and increasing archetype variety would be a good start. Removing hidden hand wont do much and Increasing flinch may curb the effectiveness of snipers but then we will all find a way to get unflinching snipers and then more problems arise and more nerf post are made.[/quote] hidden hand is plus 20 aim assist removing it would be a significant change to weapons breaking archetype with aim assist as a differential which right now it no longer is. As for unflinching that is the same problem as counterbalance and shot package. Unflinching should help marginally not so much it causes an archetype break like those two or hidden hand. It also would allow base stats to improve somewhat. Things like the hakke pulses have such garbage recoil because they have to compensate for much effective counterbalance and stability perks are at reducing it. If unflinching makes sniping through headshots possible again then it needs a nerf. My whole basis for nerfing what I propose is centered around this fact. Snipers when under fire should not be able to sustain a gunfight especially when headshot. Anything that allows this should be rebalanced. [quote]Every nerf has an effect on this game, and the player base will find a way around it and abuse the next best thing. A good sniper will not stop being good at point blank range or across the map no matter what changes happen. Id prefer if we were to start buffing weapons and subclasses again, this nerf mentality always makes the game less fun. Im the vast minority i guess.[/quote] The nerf mentality is born from not wanting a higher overall ttk like cod. Personally I think the average primary is where they need to be. Shotguns are balanced except for the conspiracy theory archetype which I think should just be removed and replaced with a chaperone archetype so the other shotguns can gain a little more viability with a buff so they at least outcompete melees. Fusions I love but have a similar problem with thesian and plans completely out performing many from their bolt spread. I don't want to see them nerfed and with shotgun changes that I stated I don't think they would need to be. Snipers are the main thing that breaks their intended effective role. Because their mechanics are ripe for abuse.

Im sure we can go at this all day, i am glad we have opposing views on the matter. I understand the frustration of sniper rifles, i too die to them while popping shots into faces only to be killed by a lucky trigger pull and some odd flinch, and that is where the issue we are discussing stems from. They are fairly easy to use, destiny is a casual game after all. Hit box size could be decreased, and the aim assist could be slightly more unforgiving. Personally i prefer low aim assist on my snipers, nothing ticks me off more than having my scope pulled around. Destiny could become a miserable mess again if the time to kill were to be raised to where it once was, i agree, the hand cannon meta was pretty insane at the time thinking back on it, but i also feel it would reduce sniper usage and could honestly bring this game back out of the camping meta we are currently in. A few weapons still underperform or work slightly worse than intended, which theoreticslly should be good counters to snipers: high impact pulse rifle, still 3 burst (correct me if im wrong), but so do low inpact high rate of fire ones, which kill faster and dont produce flinch, making high impact pulses obsolete. Hand cannon accuracy is still messy and that is another problem, as they are the gun that hits like a truck at close range, and should make it harder to land headshots with a sniper. As far as flinch goes it already exists, reducing stability on snipers could be a good start. Flinch does happen all the time while aiming down scope. Unfortunately the MIDA got nerfed, and even though i hated it it was a good counter to snipers. Most scouts are still good counters. As well, a slight buff in accuracy to hand cannons and a very minimal damage increase to high impact pulse rifles could be a good thing. As far as descoping goes for the sake of mentioning it, destiny isn't that type of game, its a fluid, somewhat fast paced fps at this point and im sure bungie wants to keep it that way. Descoping would only make people never use snipers, and no one wants them to vanish, i understand a usage reduction. The plus side to destiny is you actually do need a headshot with a sniper to get a 1hko, unlike the old days when final round existed. So at least we have that, unlike cod.