It would be easier for an eternal cyclical universe to create and destroy itself, having one of infinite outcomes in each rebirth, in a naturalistic mega- or multiverse than an eternal intelligent being to exist that, for some reason, decides to create this universe. If there is a naturalistic explanation, why need the middleman of a god figure.

Yes, the universe came from nothing. Why shouldn't it be able to?

well mostly cause in all the time we've been studying it, the universe doesnt show the quality of self creation. we know that god is the only cause of creation even if we choose to describe gods actions through quantum mechanical equations. it is through his act of creation that we see his power, intelligence and love for living creatures even though we turn away from him and hurt each other and tarnish this paradise we were blessed with.

[quote]well mostly cause in all the time we've been studying it, the universe doesnt show the quality of self creation. we know that god is the only cause of creation even if we choose to describe gods actions through quantum mechanical equations. it is through his act of creation that we see his power, intelligence and love for living creatures even though we turn away from him and hurt each other and tarnish this paradise we were blessed with.[/quote] Hawking radiation. Creation of energy from nothing. Quantum uncertainty, electron superposition/reappearance. Gods mechanics are mystical, not scientific. Apologetics-like argument. Special pleading logical fallacy. Biblical misrepresentation. We hurt each other because we have predators and scarcity. This is only nature and competition in action

ya, thats why there is violence in america, not enough to go around, lol. cute list, but you just listed a bunch of things that are happening because the universe already exists, they are a part of it. might as well say black holes or planet X. and god may be mystical to us but hes normal to himself. an ipad would be mystical to people in the past, even if you opened it up and told them how it worked it would still be magic. thats just how our silly little minds work. everything not understood is magical until it is understood. im not saying we can fully understand god or the mechanism of creation but if we do, it doesnt mean that it becomes any more or less 'magical' than before.

[quote]ya, thats why there is violence in america, not enough to go around, lol. cute list, but you just listed a bunch of things that are happening because the universe already exists, they are a part of it. might as well say black holes or planet X. and god may be mystical to us but hes normal to himself. an ipad would be mystical to people in the past, even if you opened it up and told them how it worked it would still be magic. thats just how our silly little minds work. everything not understood is magical until it is understood. im not saying we can fully understand god or the mechanism of creation but if we do, it doesnt mean that it becomes any more or less 'magical' than before.[/quote] Scarcity is precisely the reason why anything ever developed hostile instincts. Why we grew claws and hatred and violence. Because we want something that's limited and we want it for ourselves. That's the reason why there's violence en général. No. I don't mean mystical, I mean actual magic. Assuming the universe was created by magic

scarcity, developed? its called the ecosystem. a self contained balance of life that utilizes natural resources, they arent being hostile, are plants hostile for absorbing sunlight? are cows hostile for eating the plants? are we hostile for eating cows? is bacteria hostile for eating us? its funny how people only view one of these exchanges of energy as hostile. its cause we are humans who were created with a conscience mind that knows the difference between right and wrong and the ability to make our decisions even if we choose to do the wrong thing. because (obviously) we have a loving god who wants us to know what the right thing is even if he doesnt make us do it. and thats really funny about the universe being created by magic. why dont you talk to some cosmologists. they have no problem admitting that whatever was happening at the beginning of the universe, it has nothing to do with what we understand as reality. our concepts of math, time, speed, or space deteriorate as you look back to the singularity (not to mention whatever was 'before') at least what we call magic operates within our understanding of reality so ya, looking back its obviously not a magical event but something much more profound! its never too late accept the truth

[quote]scarcity, developed? its called the ecosystem. a self contained balance of life that utilizes natural resources, they arent being hostile, are plants hostile for absorbing sunlight? are cows hostile for eating the plants? are we hostile for eating cows? is bacteria hostile for eating us? its funny how people only view one of these exchanges of energy as hostile. its cause we are humans who were created with a conscience mind that knows the difference between right and wrong and the ability to make our decisions even if we choose to do the wrong thing. because (obviously) we have a loving god who wants us to know what the right thing is even if he doesnt make us do it. and thats really funny about the universe being created by magic. why dont you talk to some cosmologists. they have no problem admitting that whatever was happening at the beginning of the universe, it has nothing to do with what we understand as reality. our concepts of math, time, speed, or space deteriorate as you look back to the singularity (not to mention whatever was 'before') at least what we call magic operates within our understanding of reality so ya, looking back its obviously not a magical event but something much more profound! its never too late accept the truth[/quote] Apparently you think hostile means evil. No, I mean hostile as in predatory/consuming instincts. This includes taking the life of other things. Yes, cows are the hostile entities when they eat the grass to the grass, just as wolves are to the cows when they eat the cows and when cannibals hunt and consume other people. Plants are not hostile towards the sun for absorbing sunlight though due to that being an inanimate and bound-to-happen thing. Simple stuff, really... Right and wrong don't matter in nature. Only survival. Humans created concepts of right and wrong in order to maintain social unity in our tribes per an evolutionary process that developed us to become social beings in order to increase our rates of survival. Don't jump to conclusions without proof, it isn't logical. If you knew anything about magic (you [i]obviously[/i] don't), then you would comprehend that magic is the channeling of either spiritual or natural forces by manipulation of the ether. That is, the fabric of reality. Manipulation of time and probability. Those are bound by the universe, hell, magic's explicit creation in all prefaiths was the dissolution or destruction of a cosmic entity or order

no i didnt confuse hostility with evil. i didnt even mention evil, but thanks for assuming so much, it makes you seem really smart. so wolves are hostile for eating bunnies? its funny how if they ceased their hostility the bunnies would all die from over population and starvation. its seems to me the hostile thing is to not eat them. see how silly your thinking is? [quote] If you knew anything about magic (you obviously don't), then you would comprehend that magic is the channeling of either spiritual or natural forces by manipulation of the ether. That is, the fabric of reality. Manipulation of time and probability. Those are bound by the universe, hell, magic's explicit creation in all prefaiths was the dissolution or destruction of a cosmic entity or order [/quote] thats what i said! please read my comments before you reply so i dont have to keep repeating myself. Magic is an in universe occurrence, and even if it did have an influence on time, that influence ends as soon as time stop being a factor. which happens a lot. so anything outside of this universe has no connection to anything we call magical. obviously youre still unsure about a lot of things but i can feel you coming closer to the truth.

No, you never did state that hostility was evil, true, but the manner in which you state things is quite ambiguous (which could be considered a logical fallacy). As if you're bordering on two thoughts or trying to lure me into a trap of words. Yes, wolves are the hostile aggressors for rabbits when they consume them. Overpopulation and starvation are neutral things as they are inanimate such as the solar EM waves. Hostility cannot be performed by an inanimate object or consequence of the lack of action without intent. This is the reason why hitting a biker with your car by accident is considered manslaughter and not murder, principle-wise. The wolves do not intend to massacre the rabbits without consumption, they just disappear. When does time just "stop being a factor"? That's illogical to say and can only be applied to before the creation of the universe (which could've always been by Christian logic, even without God). Also, you agree with me that God is magic and now state that he isn't...a bit hypocritical, but an understandable mistake when on mobile. The truth is that God doesn't exist to me.

The first cause argument for a creator god is fundamentally flawed and a logical fallacy which renders it invalid.

its so easy to just say its logically invalid, like the people who said it would be impossible to travel faster than sound. Is quantum mechanics logical? quantum tunneling has no logical fallacies? the theorys for black holes are fundamentally flawed but they still exist. the operations of the universe and whatever preceded it do not have to make sense to a race of monkey people who dont even know how their own brain works. Its offensively arrogant (silly) how you think that you (or anybody) has the power to decide whether an idea about the incomprehensible is valid or not.

It's absolutely invalid, that entire argument consists of something can't come from nothing, so where did god come from? Nothing? Do you see the flaw? Essentially the first cause argument is this "something cannot come from nothing......except that one time". It is an argument which disproves itself which makes it invalid.

wow, you are continuing like you didnt understand anything in my reply to you. you are talking in terms based on our shallow perceptions. what are your ideas of cause and effect based on? your view of time? It is just outright ridiculous to try to apply our petty views of causality to a pre timespace state. A phrase like 'come from' has no meaning before the universe so thats why its stupid to ask 'what came before what came before the universe?'

I continued because apparently you aren't capable of understanding that your argument is a logical fallacy which inherently renders it an invalid argument. All you are doing is contradicting yourself.

the logic we live by is ruled by forces that work differently on different levels. if you really BELIEVE that what is logical in this universe has any bearing on whatever was before then we have nothing more to talk about. you offer no reason why you think this please explain why the specific rules within this universe would apply to anything OUTSIDE this universe? huh? HUH!?

You are saying that the universe is evidence of a creator god and using the first cause argument, you then tell me that I can't possibly understand what happened before the universe began yet that is what you are doing. When you come up with an argument that isn't hypocritical we'll talk until then just shut up, you are making yourself look like a moron.

of course im not saying i understand it, silly. im saying its beyond our understanding, beyond our logic. HE is beyond our comprehension. but i dont have to understand something to know it.

[quote]but i dont have to understand something to know it[/quote] Another hypocritical statement from you, you are saying that you don't need to understand something to know it but I do? Like I said, until you come up with an argument that isn't hypocritical just shut up.

if you're talking about a logical scientific principle then yes, a person would be expected to understand something if they claimed to 'know' it. but im not being a hypocrite because im talking about something in a different context. example. we are on top of a tall building and im scared because of the heights but then on ground level im not scared but i haven't become a hypocrite, we are just in a different context. nother example, A person cannot prove infinity. no one can supply infinite anything, nor can anyone truly imagine infinity because we have finite imaginations. we just walk around with this vague notion of something that it is so much that it never stops. thats similar to how i know something that i dont understand, unlike you, who you need a very clear and detailed explanation if you wanted to talk about it because you couldnt explain something that you dont understand. we are talking about radically different ideas and ways of looking at existence so why would i be a hypocrite for not being constrained by your shortcomings? thats like me calling you a hypocrite because your ideas dont follow the same logic as the Koran.

Your first example in no way relates to the topic at hand and your second example is hypocritical, you are saying you don't need to understand your version of infinity but I have to understand mine, seriously dude I suggested you shut up a couple of times but you keep coming back making yourself look more stupid each time. I hate to tell you but I haven't engaged you in an argument about whether or not there is a god, I have been arguing that your reasoning behind the existence of a god is fundamentally flawed.......which it is.

[quote]I have been arguing that your reasoning behind the existence of a god is fundamentally flawed[/quote] The existence of a god only has to be logical if it came from OUR universe! youre just whining and saying 'its not fair! god has to play by the rules just like everybody else!' no. he doesnt. what he decides to do doesnt have to, nor will it make any sense to you. you are not given the knowledge of everything that ever was, is, or ever could be, so i can say that i have at least attempted (twice now) to explain to you why i am not being a hypocrite even if you dont accept the premise. you are showing a lot of weakness in the resolve of your idea by not responding to the question i posed previously, What we call logic (cause and effect and such) is based on the laws of physics found inside of our universe and the interaction of the forces within. Question, why would something beyond this universe be held to logical rules that only have any meaning inside of said universe? i know its a toughy (which is why you couldnt answer the first time) so you can just not respond and i'll take it as an acknowledgment that you can finally see the light.