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Edited by Lord Bird I:
9/4/2015 3:02:34 AM
322
Mr. Fruit's View on Titans and Class Balancing
EDIT: Please ignore the poll, I accidentally posted it unfinished and now I can't change it.
[quote]As to all those who don't believe that Titans are the worst, and are trying to refute me. I could spend a whole video talking about it, but almost every point you all bring up - the other classes either have it built-in, or an exotic that outclasses it. Bubblebro is priceless in PvE. But for PvP, Titans are just at a clear disadvantage. As a person who has used every class, and every subclass, and has most time put into a Titan this is the consensus I've come to.
Thankfully it looks like Sunbreaker is going to change things for Titans in PvP, but let's look at it realistically:
Slowest agility : Yes you can use the "triple" tap jump to speed around, but it's not intuitive to most and it's not always practical to run around doing it in PvP and in a gunfight, you don't have the same speed to strafe or even run away - not to mention blink is just a get out of jail free card. It's so easy to avoid supers, heavies etc with blink, but titans can't get away so even overall titan's k/d usually don't match up with the other classes.
It's the "TANKY" class : We're supposed to be the frontline, however even when we max our armor out we only have 1 more health than a hunter in PvP I believe, and are tied with Warlocks. The Ram alone gives Warlocks like 22 more health in PvP which is insane.
Melee : We're supposed to be the melee class, but it's a fact our melee is the worst. No range to it. Hunters are above it especially with blink strike glitch, and the warlock is just a mile ahead of them both. Yes we have shoulder charge, but as you can see it's pretty easy to counter if you know what you're up against and titans also have to usually prep for shoulder charge beforehand knowing when it'll be up after sprinting, and how long it'll be up.
Supers: The Fist of Havoc is situational, rarely nets several kills, and you almost feel punished for using it at times because it always seems like you need to save it for a cluster, which rarely seems to happen. Warlocks have the same thing in the form of Nova Bomb, which they can send from a safe distance. Hunters have a super that pretty much guarantees 2-4 kills every activation.
Exotics: Yes the Saint-14 is great... in PvE. It can help occasionally in PvP, but using bubblebro in PvP is already putting you at a disadvantage. Ruin Wings are bugged and only useful for PvE. Arma is great for two grenades which can help, but warlocks have that perk built into their subclass already. Pretty much any other exotic is completely niche, or just offers a perk that's already in your subclass. Feedback fences? It tickles the enemy, I've gotten 1 kill across my hours of playtime using it. PvP you just have nothing that really helps, and so I often use Inmost light just because it lets me take 2 skills for my super.
You can all sit here and argue on and on about it, but I can say without a doubt that Bungie is sitting on data that backs up exactly what I'm saying - especially PvP. I talked to Luke Smith and Mark about this while I was at bungie for hours on end. The Titans just don't have anything they really shine at, except for being the staple for most PvE encounters with the Bubble. They told me they're aware of it and are always looking at ways to fix it. So fingers crosses, but even Bungie knows Titans are a notch down from the others.
The bubble is near useless in PvP because it can't protect against supers, you can't use it as a reactive defense because everything bursts it. Anyway like I said I could go on and on and on about this because as someone who wants the Titans so badly to be really good, it hurts to realistically look at it and know that we're just not at the same tier with the current build. I'm not going to respond to the comments to this because it won't get us anywhere, you're always free to disagree.
/rant[/quote]
-Mr. Fruit
This comment can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrH5FmnCm8c
This is probably the best argument for class balancing I've seen in a long time. The video (Specifically the first round) shows the clear disadvantages that the Titan has in the melee department, even with shoulder charge. And in the round where they were all using an auto rifle, Mr. Fruit absolutely crushed Blue and Rhabby, so he's likely more skilled than them, but in the other rounds in this series it doesn't look like it because abilities were allowed in those rounds.
Other Thread with more evidence: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/147725199/0/0
Statistics thread:
https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/151174823/0/0
Tell me if you agree or disagree, and if you do disagree please give a valid argument rather than "Fist of Havoc/Shoulder Charge/Lightning Grenades is/are OP" or at least give some form of evidence to prove it.
Thanks for Reading!
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Edited by bonkerspigeon123: 9/4/2015 10:46:42 AMI can honestly say that as a primary character warlock player I agree with this.I have played all three classes and my last and most recent character is a titan defender. In PvP, Titans are disadvantaged,their main strength of Armour is pretty much non-existent. They are the only class without some form of ranged melee. Blink strike has similar range to a warlock melee and Throwing knife can have a greater range than a warlock melee if the user is accurate. However both of these are just Charged Melee abilities. The titans charged melee abilities have no extra range to a standard melee. Neither titan subclass possesses a grenade that has some form of tracking like The Axion bolt,Arc Bolt and the DoT sunslinger grenade.
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2 RepliesYou have to be careful about buffing classes, you don't want to break the pvp again
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1 ReplyArmor of light and Feedback Fence is hilarious.
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Sunbreaker
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2 RepliesWell as a vanilla player I remember how amazing they were for VOG and how people cried about hunters so I think the new raid will reveal which class really needs a buff
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He has a few points I agree with, mainly on Health and Melee otherwise he's just QQ'ing. I actually feel like there's quite a bit of rebalancing that needs to be done, and let's not forget that there is a blink nerf of some sort incoming (thank God) so hopefully that'll help alongside the shotty nerfs and AR buffs to make aggressive blink play more tolerable. I don't mind that it's a thing, just that it's currently too easy and needs to have more of a risk to it. Back to the main topic though, he totally ignores (at least in the excerpts you posted) the fact that Titans have the best grenades in the game by far, and a very good exotic to support them in the form of the Armamentatirum (espeically when ARs are being brought back). All 3 striker grenades are amazing, and only the Defender's spike grenade is weak. Also shoulder tackle is still kinda silly particularly given the way it works while airborne and I'd honestly say it could stand a possible nerf quite frankly. I DO however agree that the regular melee for Titans is crap and needs major reworking. One of my biggest peeves with the Striker (and how they've handled the skill trees in general really) is that you can't simply run a melee oriented build and mostly ignore gun play if you're so inclined. IMO Storm Fist really ought to be a 1-hit kill. It's very short range and Strikers are supposed to be the melee kings, as emphasized by Fist of Havoc etc. I'd also like to see the damage from the feedback fence cranked up (not to an instant kill but definitely more of a punish). Force Barrier also really, really needs some buffing for PvP. I'd really like to see Bungie run with the notion of anyone dumb enough to get too close to a Titan without killing them should suffer consequences. Lastly as for their health, yeah Armor Recovery and Agility all need some adjusting. I play all 3 classes but still find that none of the stats really do a whole lot outside of strafe speed and taking a tiny bit of damage. It's absurd to me however, just how much punishment Warlocks can sponge with the Ram and/or Radiance active. They actually get more protection than Bladedancers do with Arcblade active (which by the way, hitboxes are still a bit wonky) even though both Hunters and Tittans (especially Tittans) can set themselves up to have higher base Armor ratings. The tool tip says Agility affects Jump height yet despite having the highest ratings in it Hunters by far continue to have the worst jumping ability and we shouldn't need the Boots of Eos to compensate for that. Please Bungie, look into the 3 main stats and how they function again especially in PvP - it'd be great if higher recovery for example meant your regen kicked in faster rather taking off maybe 1 second from the bar refilling to full once it starts (which is supposed to be warlock's "big" advantage). tl;dr not enough distinction between 3 the classes and various "builds" and new subclasses arne't going to change that. I also think the new titan class' viablility in PvP will be entirely depenedant on exotics which is sad (based on what we've seen)
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1 ReplyStopped giving a shit when I saw "Mr fruits view" Next should be Tyler Oakley's manifesto
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I don't play Trials myself much but I watch my son avidly 70% Hunters, 25% Warlocks , 5% TItans I'll leave a 5% margin +/- and I am a dedicated Titan.
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Edited by sonny2dap: 9/4/2015 12:47:55 PMI run a titan and a hunter, and I agree, in fact my stats bare this out, I actually like running bubble in PVP because it requires a bit more thought, I.E I tend to use it after I've witnessed enemies burning off their own supers. so the main issue is Titans have limited projection options whilst the Warlock and Hunter have great projection options.
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I agree with him
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We're all not titans
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4 RepliesI have to disagree. I consider hunters to be the weakest of them all, their melee doesn't do much, none of their grenades are very effective save for flux if you land a stick. Jump is by far better in my opinion, but that is really about it. Blade dance is easily denied and takes 2 hits against anyone using a super which is stupid with having to get up in danger, the damage resist is hardly anything either, can be kileld with a quick shotgun and melee combo. Golden gun is simple enough to evade too, just stay behind a corner 10 seconds until they run out. Both have to be popped before engaging or you get shot down before you can use it and it gets wasted. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses. I think the new subclasses will really help the balance, but that is yet to be seen on how much it will balance out. Titans are horrible in pvp when it comes to stats I will give you that, as they are mostly used for armor which is useless in pvp with everyone getting the same health/taking the same damage. Other than that though, they have much more useful skill sets than hunters do.
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1 ReplySaw poll, decided not to read the rest of the post, since there is no "Titans doesn't buff, I main titan" or "titan doesn't need buff, I don't main titan" option. Titans don't need a buff cuz they are already the most op. And when TTK comes out, and we get to throw hammers around that leave sunspots (basically lots of FoH with range and solar. Epic) nothing cn beat us. Git good scrub. #TitanMasterRace
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3 RepliesIf you believe bubbles arent op go check out JMPDOUBLEX's last video. He tears through the game with his auto, shotty, and machine gun and he uses defender.
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Thank you
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21 RepliesCan safely say my KDR is virtually equal with all classes. GS Strengths: - Trip mine can net a lot of cheeky kills if less than 195 total health. - GG is by far the easiest super to use for multikills every time. - Jump system is easy mode, quick and easy to control. - Throwing knife is very powerful in skilled hands. GS weaknesses: - Trip mine can be a massive troll if many enemies run more than 194 total health. - GG activation makes you a sitting duck for a second with no overshield. - Throwing knife overiding a lunge melee is almost painful at times. - No really good tag grenades. - No access to overshields, ever. BD strengths: - Arcbolt grenade is king of finishing/pre damaging enemies (rushing grenades). - Blink (especially with arc bolt) is easy mode with handcannons/shotguns (Especially rumble). - Invis isn't OP but it can be useful at times. - Weapon swap speed is godlike in a game like destiny. - Arcblade is tanky and allows pretty solid 2-3 kills everytime and sometimes 4/5. - Blink strike glitch allows one hit kills from front some times, also it's especially good for trapping GG as they run into a room. BD weaknesses: - Only overshield comes in super. - Melee is almost painful when it's not charged. - Arcblade in laggy games, you might as well have a butter knife. SS strengths: - FLAME SHIELDS FOR DAYS - Double grenades or a hugely op DoT tag grenade (trials king), sticky grenades also have amazing aim assistance. - Access to Ram (only exotic I'll mention) gives numerous benefits, especially thorn survival and no instant snipe on res. - Self res is very useful in trials. - Melee range means even regular melee attacks are very useful for finishing enemies. - The right super set up allows you to out melee a BD in arcblade. SS weaknesses: - SOOOOO SLOOOOOOWWWWW, the jump is like painting a target on your back. - Super is super easy to counter if no idiot gives them a flame shield. - Self res can mean zero super kills all game if against non idiots. Voidwalker strengths: - Blink. - Ram (especially with shotgun+blink) gets healing with this class. - Axoin bolt can hunt a target who was behind a wall to the grenade. - Novabomb can be a super easy 2-4 piece. - Scatter grenades (with manacles obviously) are just free kills if an enemy is alone/stationary, and can even be good group killers with bloom. - Surge (kill bonus from melee) is very underated - Good arcblade counter. Voidwalker weaknesses: - More often than not you will get one kill with nova bomb, unless you horde it. - Axoin bolt is the only tag grenade that can be avoided (and easily), meaning with out manacles all void grenades are pretty lame. Striker strengths: - DOUBLE LIGHTNING GRENADES (or single), used for tatical tagging around corners, zone rapage and all-a-round carnage! - Storm fist, while short ranged does the most damage from any direction and can really help get super back. - Shoulder charge is a super effective tool when used intelligently, also is a good noob crutch due to no blink. - Fist of Havoc is by far the most reliable super, if you don't get a kill that is your own -blam!-ing fault, Also allows you to counter every other super with ease. Amazing AoE allows for the most carnage in the right situation. - Good jump system to shotgun someone on a platform above you. Strikers weaknesses: - Jump isn't as slow as sunsingers, but still is very clunk to try and play a high movement game. - Melee range is awful, even when charged up. - Initial lightning grenade burst will hurt you, unlike arc bolts and fire bolts. - Shitty helmets, off topic but true. Defender strength: - Spike grenades are underated and super effective, especially two of them in control zones. - Suppressor grenades are excellent for any PvP situation, and will be godlike in the new 'Mayhem' mode. - Armor of light = free kills when people stupidly run into your bubble assuming you only have blessings. - Weapons / Blessings of light = huge team advantage, especially in games like skirmish and clash where kills are the only concern. - Bubble is just all around useful in control for zones and heavy times. - Force barrier is a nice overshield that regens. Defender weaknesses: - Only real super that forces you to still use gun/play skill to get kills out of it. - Bubble is a big sign saying 'Hey launch super here'. - Shitty jump as above. - Melee is pointless when uncharged. - Force barrier requires a kill so not as effective as it could be. - No tag grenades. All in all, every class is just as effective as the each other when it comes down to it. Titans are just pissy because they want access to the blink+shotgun/melee play style. You have shoulder charge which is all of that in one, yes shoulder charge is not God mode, but it sure as hell does just fine for me. The removal of ram will fix the health balancing issues, hopefully when it's re-added it is balanced. Also don't bother telling me I'm not a fair judge, my titan and hunter kills are low because I deleted them awhile back and made three warlock, then reverted back to one of each during HoW. In fact, titan was the character I got to rank 5 in the first two IB's.
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I'm a titan 'main' and I honestly don't care. Titans are fun to play in pvp. The other classes have abilities that inflate their k/d but does it really matter? In 300 Titan pvp wins I've gotten 4 breaker (rapildy kill 4 enemies) medals, in 40 Hunter pvp wins I've gotten 4 breaker medals. Looks like Hunters are more capable of getting multikill medals than Titans are, does that matter though? The things that suck about Titans in pvp are they get out melee'd by every other class and armor (their naturally higher stat) doesn't really do anything. Titan melee range should be like the Bladedancer's range, Titans have a forward moment melee but it rarely activates and if you're close to the target you just do the goofy arm swing thing instead of the step forward animation.
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Edited by Brokenspade: 9/4/2015 11:34:11 AMTitans are harder to PvP with. But also more rewarding. Learning to do things like hide in your own lightning grenades. Use the shoulder charge aerial lock-on to hit targets or dodge supers. Everything to do with suppression grenades. The bubble boy orb strat. I have the most fun with my meat tank.
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4 Replies.....no..... Let's nerf the others. Then say it's unbalanced again and nerf Titans. Afterwards nerf all the guns until we all can use only sticks
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The only thing you guys overlook is this. Go in PvP. Find a spot you like. Preferably the middle of the map if you're in rumble. Toss Down a WoL bubble. Have an icebreaker on and a Timurs lash or Ill Will. You will 1 shot body shot with the ice breaker and two shot with the HC's for close range. Or, if you want to switch it up, put on NLB which will also 1-shot to the body, and a shotgun like Felwinters or Matador which just shoots the range out the ass. This way is probably better seeing as NLB can be used closer than IB, and a shotgun is all too helpful.
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Agreed with everything Fruit said. I main a titan, but since the last weapon balance, I have virtually stoped playing crucible in favor of BladeDancer Hunter or Voidwalker. Both have blink shotgun and are way better for PvP than either of the titan subclasses
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I main a Titan and don't think they need a buff, just chill and play the game next Tuesday lol [spoiler]but I mean a buff would be nice don't get me wrong, I'll take a faster or stronger Titan any day [/spoiler]
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1 ReplyDefender is extremely effective in PvP. My highest K/D matches are with this class. Weapons of Light + High Impact Sniper Rifle + Glass House = Golden Gun for 1 whole minute. Not to mention suppressor grenades are one of the best grenades in the game- shut down supers. As for the Striker, it's all about the Lightning Grenades & Armamentarium. If you want to sport a shotgun melee setup, go with Hard Luck Charm (Shot Package + Rifled Barrel + Battle Runner). Get a shotgun kill and speed charge into the next guy. If I were to suggest a buff, it would be to change shockwave into a radial wave instead of a frontwards wave.
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3 RepliesTitians like me what's your k.d!?
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Edited by Petty Wap 619: 9/4/2015 8:13:56 AMI've started playing defender and average better than 1.50+ with them. Very fun class once you get it down and St-14 is amazing. But I'm also running 1.50+ KD on all three soooo
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I've grown to love the Defender, but he's spot on about how weak it is. The only safe way to play it in PvP is to use it as a choke point with Saint-14 equipped, and run Armor of Light. That both forces you to stay inside the bubble and makes you a huge purple target. You can always try a No Backup Plans build if you want to run around with an overshield and tank shotgun blasts, but who does that?
