[b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read):
[i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i]
[b]Note 1:[/b]
[i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i]
[b]Note 2:[/b]
[i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP.
Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i]
[u]_________________________________________________[/u]
Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say.
Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4):
34.2% currently play as Hunters
33.6% currently play as Warlocks
32.2% currently play as Titans
As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population).
Top 100 players (by class)
1st place: Hunters at 36.1%
2nd place: Titans at 32.6%
3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3%
Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill.
Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class)
1st place: Hunters at 35.3%
2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7%
3rd place: Titans at 32%
Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top.
Let's break down the subclass demographics:
[u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population)
51% Bladedancers
49% Gunslingers
[u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population)
47% Defenders
53% Strikers
[u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population)
62% Sunsingers
38% Voidwalkers
Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR:
[u]Hunters[/u]
Bladedancers > 1
Gunslingers > 1
[u]Titans[/u]
Defender < 1
Striker < 1
[u]Warlocks[/u]
Voidwalker < 1
Sunsinger < 1
As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun:
1) Handcannons
1,466,551,647 kills
2) Shotguns
1,441,875,593 kills
3) Melee
1,082,244,380 kills
A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible.
1) Sunsingers
281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside)
2) Strikers
193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills)
3) Bladedancer
175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills)
4) Voidwalker 14.84%
5) Defender 13.65%
6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?)
To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife.
Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf?
1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%)
2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%)
3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%)
4) Sunsinger at 15.71%
5) Voidwalker at 12.60%
6) Defender 12.52%
So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks.
Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss?
Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP:
1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super)
2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills
3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills
4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills
5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills
6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills
The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles.
Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade.
[b]Source of information[/b]:
Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population
[b]Authors note[/b]:
Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source.
Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below!
EDIT:
[i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i]
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First off, great posting of all those stats!! I love to see compiled lists like this! I have all 3 classes but I run a titan main. I've used all 3 in the crucible and have over a 1.0 k/d on all of them. To me a hunter seems op at times, until I am the hunter that is, then it sucks! I agree that your knife should 1 hit kill for a headshot, not sure why is doesn't. The bladedancer needs to drop more orbs when carving up the enemy, 2 or less is not right when you kill 5 enemies with it! I don't use trip mines, hate them, but in my opinion they last a little too long after being placed. To be honest I hate the lightning grenade also, don't use it, never will. I run a titan main and I agree it lasts too long also. Shoulder charge, as others have stated, is very limiting move as far as vision and window to use it are concerned. I can make it last longer with some really crappy exotic legs but I don't think its worth the slot. As others have said a shotty will ruin our day though! I don't use blink in the crucible because I can't use it properly, not afraid to admit that. Some people are godlike with it though and this is why I see blink as op, hunter or warlock. In my experience people blink through supers, rockets and pretty much every other form of damage I can dish out. There are ways to counter it, you just have to pay attention, but I think its okay for it to be a little op on hunters as they can't seem to take the damage that my titan or even my warlock can. All in all I believe that all classes are balanced fairly well, it just comes down to how you use the weapons at your disposal.
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While I agree in principal that the classes are largely balanced, that doesn't mean there couldn't stand to be some tweaks. I still feel like the Hunter grenades are the weakest, but we definitely have high-potential supers and decent melee (I would say amazing if throwing knives could 1-hit kill on headshots). It'd be nice if people would stop walking (and I mean literally walking, not running blinking or sliding) past trip mines and surviving because it did 196 damage leaving them with roughly 4 hp. Or if the sticky grenades for all 3 classes were a bit more reliable - nothing more ridiculous than sticking someone with one only to see it fall off harmlessly. Oh that reminds me, I once stuck a warlock on his foot with a trip mine but he lived simply because he used nova bomb because that's fair (and ppl have argued with me it has no inherent armor boost, BS I got video proof it does). I do however feel as though Arc Blade still hasn't been fixed. Specifically, IIRC Bungie admitted the hitboxes for it are off but have yet to correct them resulting in shots missing that shouldn't. I also think that neither Hunter nor warlock should be able to tank direct hits from Rockets (especially Gally) simply because their super is active, that's kinda silly.
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Bump. You just burned away a little of the darkness on these forums. Bravo my friend. Bravo.
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Edited by X1014: 8/27/2015 3:15:03 PM
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When I saw the "lightning and magnetic grenade OP" stats, I laughed at how many salty guardians are complaining about it even though they are the two least used grenades in crucible
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Only problem I have is blade dancers producing half the orbs of any other super
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I think its just the OP hotshot hunters having their OP killstreaks ended by shoulder charge and magnetic grenade whining about how unfair it is that they actually died from the "weakest class". And to you hunters who met with the affections of my magnetic grenade after your knife killed my face? Sweet, sweet victory! May all your Golden Guns misfire! Best part of being a Titan is power smashing a bunch of Hunters and Warlocks gathered round the heavy ammo! And doing it IMMEDIATELY after they just opened it!
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Um, since when is it that hunters complain. Threads like this prove that we pretty much only are annoyed my lack of [i]PvE[/i] grenades. Other classes (and some hunters) don't let hunters in because their supers are weak in [i]PvE[/i]. So we have asked that at least one should be buffed. We got celestial nighthawk, and I haven't seen any complaints since then. The only complaints I've seen lately are about shotguns, exotics hand cannons, Bungie, and shoulder charge.
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I main a hunter and I by no means think it is weak. However, I don't think I've seen all but a very small amount of hunters (in all honesty probably only 5-6 people) complain about how weak it is. In fact, I see tons of hunters boast about the power of their abilities rather than complain about how it is weak. I can pretty much say for sure that if there is a hunter complaining about how it's weak, it's probably an 8 year old or someone around that age.
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Nice job on the math there. 10/10 would want a teacher :P
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As someone whose first and favorite class is Hunter... Hunters that complain about our abilities are just doing it wrong.
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What is this? Logic on the Destiny Forum? Never thought I'd see the day.
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Edited by iZnth: 8/27/2015 3:03:42 PMI used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took a final round sniper shot to the knee. Edit: bonus points on source linkage and making me who main a Voidwalker feel like a special, special snowflake.
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I would be interested myself to see average k/do spread by the same players across all three classes. Also everyone that uses all 3 to be broken down and see who comes out on top by class. If that makes sense.
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I'm a hunter and the only buff I have and probably ever will is a PVE buff to golden gun and all i'm asking is let me get -blam!-ing crits with my super for a class that is all about getting crits! for other classes no complaints
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Clearly shows hunters take no skill. I feel the cheapest while playing as a hunter. But gotta get the grimore.
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Edited by WhiteFu: 8/27/2015 3:03:11 PMI don't usually see hunters complaining about their supers in [i]pvp[/i]. Pending player skill, you're basically guaranteed at least two kills per super as long as you see red on the radar. Most of the posts I read are focused on pve and the fact that the only reason bladedancers ever use their super endgame is for invis. Even then, though, fist of havoc is similarly subpar as yellow bars laugh it off. Edit: That video was interesting. I think a lot of folks forget Bungie is comprised of people and not demons seeking to torment us.
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Bravo. Bump
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Bump for logic.
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Edited by Vorpal Trooper: 8/27/2015 2:57:59 PMDoesn't make a difference anyways, the new Titan subclass will be OP and then people will complain about that next. I iust keep playing on my Titan regardless. Not here to have 2.0kd or 80-0 trials, just here to have fun with some buddies.
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Nice work! Seems blade dancers have few downsides.
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So how exactly are titan defenders killing 12.52 percent with their bubble? That makes no sense
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Half of these stats are wrong but I agree that no class is OP or overused.....
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Your username makes me question everything you just said.
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Good stuff
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-blam!-ing hell really long did you say Thorn or TLW needed nerfing ? if so upvote if not meh ..