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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by 传说中的 Ghost: 8/28/2015 11:37:38 AM
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By popular crybaby demand

[b]TLDR[/b] (too long; didn't read): [i]There are people who, believe it or not, claim that Hunters' both subclasses are [b]under-powered[/b] in PvP. Some even claim that Titans' Striker class is [b]over-powered[/b] in PvP. This topic will give you statistics that suggests that both cases are false. The source of information can be found [url=http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population]here[/url].[/i] [b]Note 1:[/b] [i]This thread has been edited to be less flamatory and more informative. Whoever wants a copy of the original can simply send me a PM.[/i] [b]Note 2:[/b] [i]This topic is focused on Bladedancers, Gunslingers and Strikers and therefor dedicate very little attention to the other subclasses. Some people are wondering both if and how Sunsingers super effects the rest of the stats, and the answer is yes. Due to Sunsingers super giving the player a significant reduction in ability cool-down, Sunsingers are at the top of both the Melee Kill Count (PvP) table and the Grenade Kill Count (PvP) table- this does however not mean that both their melee attacks and grenades are not great (without the super active) in PvP. Some people also wonder how Defender titans can have super kills due to their super being passive. I don't have the actual facts on this one, but me and other forumers are theorising that kills under the effect of either Weapons of Light, Blessings of Light or Armor of Light (i.e. kills inside the Ward of Dawn) count towards the Defender's Super Kill Count (PvP) table.[/i] [u]_________________________________________________[/u] Like a Gunslinger with Golden Gun I am here to burst your bubbles of misconception and delusion, with facts derived from statistics. Bladedancers and Gunslingers (from here on referred to simply as "Hunters) are not under-powered, and Strikers are not over-powered. Now I know that some of you will dispute the statistics' significance- and by all means do so... But if you have nothing but anecdotes to offer, chances are slim that anyone will care about what you have to say. Let's start by clearing out the demographics in the crucible, across all platforms (Xbox 360, Xbox One, Playstation 3, Playstation 4): 34.2% currently play as Hunters 33.6% currently play as Warlocks 32.2% currently play as Titans As you can see, no class is over-represented, thus can we deduce that none of the following stats will be skewed to a point of being completely unreliable or misrepresentative (think margine of error and natural breaks in population). Top 100 players (by class) 1st place: Hunters at 36.1% 2nd place: Titans at 32.6% 3rd place: Warlocks at 31.3% Congratulations Hunters! You are the Kings and Queens of the hill. Top 10,000 players (the average Joe, by class) 1st place: Hunters at 35.3% 2nd place: Warlocks at 32.7% 3rd place: Titans at 32% Congratulations Hunters! Yet again you're at the top. Let's break down the subclass demographics: [u]Hunters[/u] (34.2% of the population) 51% Bladedancers 49% Gunslingers [u]Titans[/u] (32.2% of the population) 47% Defenders 53% Strikers [u]Warlocks[/u] (33.6% of the population) 62% Sunsingers 38% Voidwalkers Let's have a look at the AVERAGE KDR: [u]Hunters[/u] Bladedancers > 1 Gunslingers > 1 [u]Titans[/u] Defender < 1 Striker < 1 [u]Warlocks[/u] Voidwalker < 1 Sunsinger < 1 As most of you know, the current (since shortly prior to HoW) PvP meta game consists of an exotic handcannon and a shotgun: 1) Handcannons 1,466,551,647 kills 2) Shotguns 1,441,875,593 kills 3) Melee 1,082,244,380 kills A common complaint is how Titans Shoulder charge is over-powered, so let's see who's the worst perpetraitor in the Crucible. 1) Sunsingers 281,325,978 (26% of) melee kills (as previously mentioned, effected by their super- but still lethal outside) 2) Strikers 193,989,846 (17.93% of) melee kills (Shoulder charge is not the standard melee kill, but does count towards melee kills) 3) Bladedancer 175,413,331 melee kills (Arcblade does not count toward melee kills) 4) Voidwalker 14.84% 5) Defender 13.65% 6) Gunslinger 11.37% (throwing what?) To some players the Shoulder charge is a real problem, but I'm also sure I'm not the only one who has cursed the range and weight behind a warlock's air slap. Hmm. Gunslingers though, thumbs up if you know how to throw your knife. Now onto the real problem. Arcblade and Golden Gun needs a buff? Fist of Havoc needs a nerf? 1) Bladedancer at 207,596,562 kills (21.73%) 2) Gunslinger at 179,520,390 kills (18.79%) 3) Striker at 178,059,836 kills (18.64%) 4) Sunsinger at 15.71% 5) Voidwalker at 12.60% 6) Defender 12.52% So, now that we've established that Hunters get the absolute highest amount of kills with their supers, I think it's safe to say that neither Hunter super needs adjustments towards the better. As a part of class balancing the Hunter supers are very different from the other supers; they offer little damage income reduction (i.e. shields and health regeneration- EXOTICS EXCLUDED FOR VALID REASONS). In short, a hunter can get great rewards at great risks. Striker Titans are harder to stop. Can they be countered? Absolutely, but not in the traditional manner: you have to kill them before they close the gap to you. Waiting around the corner? Well... If someone want to use their super to do what a traditional shotgun can do just as good... Isn't that their loss? Anyways, the last myth to debunk: Hunter grenades are lackluster (under-powered), Magnetic grenades and Lightning grenades are OP: 1) Sunsinger at 173,643,166 grenade kills (yet again, affected by the Sunsingers' super) 2) Bladedancer at 129,281,096 grenade kills 3) Gunslinger at 104,629,378 grenade kills 4) Voidwalker at 98,384,135 grenade kills 5) Striker at 90,707,260 grenade kills 6) Defender at 67,964,843 grenade kills The name of the game ends with "bolt". Magnetic grenade isn't a bad grenade, it's just that few people are willing to sacrifice an offensive super to get plasma grenades....... I mean, Magnetic grenades. Of course. Lightning grenades? They're strong, but won't OHK anyone... So unless you're simply arrogant, stubborn or unattentive, you shouldn't find them game breakingly good (move side-ways, don't try to run away from it- it has the reach of Thor's wrath). Also, have you ever tried to stick an ice cone to the side of a wall? Yes, these babies have a passion for getting stuck in awkward angles. Tripmine... If you consider this a bad grenade then I feel very comfortable to have you know that it's most likely an issue with the operator. This baby can be hidden in tight areas and take out entire herds confused tourists. Seriously, it's not a bad grenade. [b]Source of information[/b]: Destiny Tracker, downloaded at 12:15 PM on the 27th of August 2015, from http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population [b]Authors note[/b]: Statistics on Destiny Tracker are updated every 15 minutes, and thus people will find differing numbers while cross checking the source. Did I miss anything? Grammar or spelling mistake? Are there other issues related to this topic that needs to be raised? Post a comment below! EDIT: [i]On a completely unrelated note. THANK YOU BUNGIE for the great video over at Game Informer. I absolutely loved the return of humour and honesty. You really nailed the description of the community being more like shareholders than hobby gamers. I strongly recommend anyone reading this to look up the Game Informer video (released on the 26th).[/i]

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  • So I agree there is nothing wrong with the hunter or any class in crucible. The grenade and super kills are slightly skewed because the hunter and warlock are used more often. Just an observation I don't think it invalidates the overall argument.

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  • M aiq is done talking

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    • Your point would have been perfect if there were equal amounts of people using each class. Look at it like this: if there are 10 hunters, 7 warlocks and 6 titan and each got 1000 kills you'd have: Hunters with: 10,000 kills Warlocks with: 7,000 kills Titans with: 6,000 kills That's a least 30% more kills just by adding 3 extra people. I'm sure you get my point. Also as for the grenade stats, well that shouldn't even be a subject because being a sunsinger and activating your super kinda requires you to drown the arena with grenades. Doesn't make them the most deadly. Just makes them the most used. On average a sunsinger will thrown at least 10 grenades each match if they threw one whenever they could and activated their supers and that's at the very least. I know I've thrown 30-40 before in a single match. Again the point isn't arguable. The same with supers. Warlocks and Titans have single shot supers while hunters do not. You gotta average them better next time before going on a rampage.

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    • Nice [spoiler]damn those "investment designers"[/spoiler]

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    • As long as the numbers are up to date and accurate, I'm shocked it's that even. When I play PvP, seems 4 out of 6 are Hunters (me included).

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    • whoever said the hunter supers are weak are stupid as -blam!-

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      • If I go to the destiny tracker homepage, how can I find this stuff?

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      • Mother effin bump

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        • Mained Titan, better KDR than AVG! Woot!

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        • I have a question for you (not trying to start an argument or anything really related to stats) are the stats for sunsinger grenade and melee kills while under radiance listed as super kills or grenade/melee kills? Makes a difference imo.

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          • Great post! Ball don't lie...

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          • Where did you get the stats just curious

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            • A couple of observations on the conclusions you've drawn here: First, you claim that Warlock's (presumably you mean Sunsingers, since it would be unfair to compare the one Titan subclass to both of the Warlock's) get nealy twice as many melee kills as Strikers, but the numbers clearly don't show that. The proper ratio is about 2/3. Secondly, your numbers indicate that Sunsingers are by far the dominant class for both grenade and melee kills, but this is to be expected due to the way the Sunsinger super works, and the sheer number of them running around. I believe that ability kills while Radiance is active count both as super kills, and as kills with the appropriate ability. Whether or not this accounts for the full measure of the Sunsinger's dominance we cannot say, but we can say that Shoulder Charge does give a boost to the melee kill numbers for Strikers versus subclasses other than Sunsingers. As an aside, Arc Blade kills do not count as melee kills. I have no idea why, except as a way to prevent certain bounties from being too easy. Thirdly, your numbers for super kills show Gunslingers and Strikers very close to one another. If you want to argue that Golden Gun is overpowered, you may need to consider that Fist of Havoc is as well. The real problem is Arc Blade, and that is difficult to address because it's already a terrible super outside Crucible, useful for the most part only to grant access to the Vanish talent. As another aside, I have no idea what counts for a Defender's super kills. Lastly, your numbers for kills with a certain type of ability don't seem to account for the number of players using each subclass. As an example, Gunslingers narrowly beat out Voidwalkers for grenade kills, but Voidwalkers are by far the least represented class in the game, and probably get more kills with grenades per capita than Gunslingers, who have a grenade selection similar to Strikers. In fact, because of that similar selection it would be interesting to see this statistic broken down further. Sunsingers, on the other hand, are massively overrepresented, so we can expect their numbers to be inflated. If you look carefully at you numbers, you will see that Gunslingers and Strikers are very close in terms of balance and representation. Gunslingers have a very slight edge in super kills, and a small edge with grenades, while Strikers dominate in melee combat. Arc Blade could stand a little reworking, but if they nerf Blink that will certainly have an effect (unfortunately also hitting the Voidwalker, which it seems could use some love). And Defenders suck in PvP. Sorry about that. Maybe give them Armor Lock?

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              • Voidwalkers are the rarest subclass used in PvP? Awesome; I like being a voidwalker even more now. Good post.

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              • Good job. Ppl who know the game know the strengths and weaknesses of everything. Babies whine. But for real tho [spoiler]ufkc thorn[/spoiler]

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              • Thanks for this! That was awesome since the myth of things muddle the reality. Numbers don't lie, lol!

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              • But, you're a liar...

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              • Top 100 is wrong. It is 1 hunters, 2 warlocks, and 3 Titans

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              • Didn't read.

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              • Just want more orbs for blade dancer really

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              • Edited by CallMeCrimson: 8/27/2015 8:42:42 PM
                Defenders are great in PvE they really are but in PvP they're really bad, as seen in the stats above, I love titans and want to always play my defender class as I prefer it to striker but usually when I pop my bubble (Insert any super in the game) can kill it almost effortlessly, especially void walkers and strikers.. blade dancers are neck and neck unless they're smart enough to use their wave skill, forgot what it was called. What annoys me even more is that sunsingers, are efficiently more tankier than us. Sure we have armor of light.... if we stay in our bubble.. sure we get an overshield if we melee someone to death...but all a sunsinger has to do is melee someone once *not to mention that their melee is ranged* Their super makes them extremely dangerous while being as tanky as a bladedancer and if you were to pick the perk before self-res for an overshield, then you might aswell delete your defender, you have a better class. In pvp I honestly think defenders were like a beta test for sunsingers. That's my opinion anyway. Edit : I'm not a cry baby, I have a 1.5+ on my warlock and hunter, 1.47 on my titan xD

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              • Bump. And thank you

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              • All I got from this is that all the current classes are pretty well balanced in PvP.

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              • Liked because "M'aiq's father was also called M'aiq. As was M'aiq's father's father. At least, that's what his father said." "M'aiq wishes you well." "M'aiq knows much, and tells some. M'aiq knows many things others do not." "M'aiq carries two weapons, to be safe. What if one breaks? That would be most unlucky." "M'aiq is always in search of calipers, yet finds none. Where could they have gone?" "M'aiq hears many stories of war... yet few of them are true." "How does anyone know there was a city of Winterhol? M'aiq did not see it with his eyes. Did you?" "Too much magic can be dangerous. M'aiq once had two spells and burned his sweetroll." "What does this mean, to combine magic? Magic plus magic is still magic." "It does not matter to M'aiq how strong or smart one is. It only matters what one can do." "Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." "Werebears? Where? Bears? Men that are bears?" "Much snow in Skyrim. Enough snow. M'aiq does not want any more." "Snow falls. Why worry where it goes? M'aiq thinks the snowflakes are pretty." "Skyrim was once the land of many butterflies. Now, not so much." "M'aiq once walked to High Hrothgar. So many steps, he lost count." "Once M'aiq got in trouble in Riften, and fled to Windhelm. It is good yhat nobody cared." "M'aiq can travel fast across the land. Some lazy types take carriages. It is all the same to M'aiq." "M'aiq does not understand what is so impressive about shouting. M'aiq can shout whenever he wants." "M'aiq saw a mudcrab the other day. Horrible creatures." "M'aiq loves the people of Skyrim. Many interesting things they say to each other." "Nords are so serious about beards. So many beards. M'aiq thinks they wish they had glorious manes like Khajiit." "M'aiq does not remember his childhood. Perhaps he never had one." "M'aiq is very practical. He has no need for mysticism." "Nords' armor has lots of fur. This sometimes makes M'aiq nervous." "M'aiq was soul trapped oncr. Not very pleasant. You should think about that once in a while." "Some say Alduin is Akatosh. Some say M'aiq is a liar. Don't you believe either of those things." "Something strange happens to Khajiit when they arrive in Skyrim." "M'aiw has heard the people of Skyrim are better-looking than the ones in Cyrodiil. He has no opinion on the matter. All people are beautiful to him." "Why do soldiers bother with target practice? One learns best by hitting real people." "M'aiq knows why Falmer are blind. It has nothing to do with Dwemer disappearing. Really." "M'aiq has heard it is dangerous to be your friend." "The people in Skyrim are more open-minded about certain things than people in other places." "Some like taking friends on adventures. M'aiq thinks being alone is better. Less arguing about splitting treasure." "Don't try blocking if you have two weapons. You will only get confused. Much better to hit twice anyway." "M'aiq knows many things, no?" "M'aiq is tired now. Go bother somebody else." "M'aiq is done talking."

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                • I don't think Hunters suck. I know i suck as a hunter. I WISH I was as good a most of them. I always look out for them in crucible.

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                • How do defenders have 12% the super doesn't kill anything?

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