[quote]Here's my opinion on the patch. The pulse rifle and scout rifle adjustments, I feel, won't really affect much. They will be better in PvE, and pulses might be a bit worse in PvP, we will have to wait and see. Autos, they are getting a great buff for PvP, making them the weapons they should be. In PvE, they should be monstrous. The range is perfect, so long as it is much longer than the that shown in the picture on weapons like the Vanquisher Handcannons. Now. Everything here was amazing. This is my opinion. But, the mag size decrease might be too harsh. We will see. Shotguns needed this nerf. Felwinters etc were just too powerful. I'm glad they've been changed. The bit about fusion rifles just confused me. I think the faster charge ones might become better, but I really have no clue. Let's wait and see. As for snipers, THEY FIXED THAT STUPID FINAL ROUND. THANK GOD. The grenades and horseshoes nerf is going to add skill to heavy rounds, something badly needed. Hard light and Necrochasm were buffed perfectly, great job Bungie. TLW was handled well in my opinion, they are trying to make it the hip fire beast it should be. Thorn. Well, if the base hand cannon nerfs are severe enough, Thorn should be fine. But I don't think Thorn will be obsolete, it should still be very good. Hawkmoon didn't really get changed at all. It won't even be affected by the Mag size decrease. I see where they are coming from with icebreaker. Rather than waiting five seconds, someone might decide to use the time to actually deal damage to enemies rather than hiding. Icebreaker is designed for infrequent, high damage against bosses or majors, and this shouldn't really change that. Black Hammer was nerfed, I believe, so it doesn't become better than the icebreaker. That's the only reason I could see, as it is only legendary. Gjallahorn needed a nerf. Let's be honest. This nerf will still leave it the best PvE rocket in the game. What more could you ask for? NLB will be still pretty goofy, but better in general. I think that is all, just my opinion. Tell me what you think.[/quote] I agree... a well rounded view... anyone disagreeing with us on this, from a day 1 player can just STFU... most people in this community thrive on cheap drivel in PvP and whine when they don't have a clear advantage. I'd like to see the numbers in the next Iron Banner, but I think Bungie did it right.

The Hawkmoon is getting a mag increase, thus diluting the main perk of the gun. So it's bad, actually. With the range decrease on the shottys and hand cannons, there's no longer any defense against the snipers.

But hand cannons in general are getting a mag size decrease, so the Hawkmoon change will probably just reverse that. And what do you mean there is no counter to snipers? You should never have been able to kill a sniper with a hand cannon. That's what scouts are for.

Depending on range. But logicaly at long range scouts win

Against hand cannons, of course. But a skilled sniper should beat a scout at longer ranges.

Thats a little iffy. If the sniper is good they drop as soon as seen. But of he ant on point. Scouts win.

Actually, I can assure you that you can be sniped out with a hand cannon in the real world (not meant to be sarcastic). They hold shooting competitions all throughout the southern United States with revolvers, where you have to hit targets from 300 yards. I forget the name of the event, but we've been holding them for over a century. Hand cannons have been used for ranged combat for hundreds of years. Not implying Destiny is some sort of weapon simulator, just pointing out how lethal hand cannons can be from long range. Thus, this nerf (especially on the Hawkmoon) is actually a departure from reality. Google Bob Munden. He can consistently hit targets 500 yards out with a S&W M60 and a standard velocity .38.

Ok. But what about 600 yards plus thats where we talk about falloff. This is what scouts are for. 500-1400 yards.

Did they specifically mention the 600 yards number? As I said below, the only hand gun in the game that can one shot you from that range is the Hawkmoon. But that's the perk. Why dilute the perk? If the issue is getting one shotted from across the map, then please name another primary besides the Hawk that can do that. Not the Thorn. Takes 2 headshots currently, and the last word takes a whole mag from that far out.

They are talking about range engagement s of 0 - 1900 yards. And how the weapon classes and each weapon itself is representing themselves in their proper areas of use to maxium effectiveness. In addition to the proper fall off or enefectiveness when used out side its comfort zone.

Fair enough. But what about the mag increase to 15 for the Hawk? Does that make any sense to anyone?

We dont know any mag sizes yet to be honest. And to be realy honest mag size should not matter. 3 luck rounds? It batter have at least a 12 round mag.

No sir, they have already confirmed the actual numbers of increasing the mag from 12 to 15 for the Hawkmoon.

Mate, this game contains Space Magic and has equal gravity on earth, moon, Venus and Mars. I think reality is gone out the window. If they were to make it that realistic, they'd have to add bullet drop, speed, account for wind, all kinds of things.

Then your comment about "You should never have been able to kill a sniper with a hand cannon." makes absolutely no sense in this context. Of course you should be able to kill a sniper with a hand cannon. Because it contains space magic with gravity variations. So you see, either side you land on doesn't provide a justification for nerfing the Hawkmoon.

Sorry, I meant at sniper range. If you see someone way off in the distance sniping you, you should have to hide or counter snipe them. And they gave Hawkmoon less of a nerf than every other handcannon, what's the problem? It won't have it's mag size decreased, so it'll be the same, minus a bit of range and accuracy, which it needed to lose.

I respectfully disagree on the range (and thanks for being civil). If the game is supposed to be a departure from reality, then I see no reason why a hand cannon can't snipe you from 300 yards away. If the game is supposed to be closer to reality, then I see no reason why a hand cannon can't snipe you from 300 yards away. Yes, I know I wrote that twice because it doesn't matter either way as far as the weapon is concerned. Hand cannons are deadly accurate from long range, so I question if Bungie did any research on real weapons, or just focused on the asthetics. Remember the first Halo? The pistol was the best weapon in the game, and it could snipe you quick. Hawkmoon and Felwinters is my go-to loadout for crucible, so I really don't have a taste to play this game anymore. We'll see. Not going to rage out like some people on here, but feel like they dropped the ball on this one. The hand cannon nerf is the only one I'm upset about, because it really makes no sense. It's like they don't know the ranges of real guns. The Hawkmoon is the only hand cannon that can one shot you from sniper range, but that's the perk! Why dilute the perk? And they've already confirmed that the magazine size will increase to 15 bullets, from the previous 12. So no, it won't benefit from the magazine reduction.

Well, for the sake of balance, hand cannons shouldn't be able to kill from long range. Scouts and pulse rifles can do that already, and we know autos won't be able to, so if hand cannons could kill from close AND long ranges, we'd have a problem.

I agree with that completely. But that's the perk of the Hawkmoon. So it should still have that ability. I agree with you about the other hand cannons though. More upset about the mag increase, truthfully. Now the Hawkmoon is no better than rolling Luck in the Chamber on a six shooter.