>implying you can have sane discussion about religion. Your statement is irrelevant because today the majority display buddhism as a religion. According to wikipedia this the critea for religion are a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, traditions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought. Most buddhist acknowledge that buddhism in fact is a religion some of them have stated [quote]Like all major religions, Buddhism contains an explanation of the origin of existence, a morality, and a specific set of rituals and behaviors. ... Buddhism presents a transformational goal, a desire to improve one's situation, and a distinct moral code[/quote] You can argue that in the beginning, buddhism was not a religion but has now become one. I've studied buddhism before and much of its teaching share a system of thought that is considered to be the highest truth. It involves moral codes, practices, values, traditions and rituals. There happy now?