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6/14/2015 12:48:09 PM
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Hold X to dismantle misconceptions

Thread's purpose is to break down pvp misconceptions. Or rather commonly complained about things and phrases that people cite to prove said misconceptions. I apologize in advance for any grammatical errors. It's pretty early in the morning for me. [u]x gun is op.[/u] Gonna blow your mind on this one. If I can go into the crucible and take on that gun with any gun of my choice and win then it's not OP. Simple as that. "But Mongrel that's just because you were more skilled!" exactly. If player skill can over come a gun then the gun is not OP. Over powered basically means you can't beat it. No matter how good you are no matter what strat you use you will always lose because that thing is over powered. Simply put there is no OP gun in destiny currently. What people really mean is..... [u]X gun is better then most other guns.[/u] This is a semi true statement. But rather then discuss the validity of the statement we should actually be asking the question "is this okay?" and the answer surprisingly is yes. In destiny's case this exists because we have introduced rpg elements into pvp (ala weapon perks.) Some perks will end up being more useful then others. that's just how things work out. The important thing here is that the weapons might be better by default. but they don't break anything. which feeds back into my first point. As long as a reasonably skilled player can over come the weapon it's not a problem. In other shooters there are still better guns. In halo for instance the BR is better then most weapons in most situations. But it doesn't break the balance because player skill still means all the difference. Simply put at some point you will have to stop blaming the small advantages a gun has and start looking to improve yourself as a player. If you honestly truly 100% believe the "god tier" weapons hand free wins then I can't help you. [u]Trials/Iron banner is full of nothing but X.[/u] You'd be amazed how often this pops up. And again this really isn't an issue. why? well for one both game types have level advantages enabled. That should be everyone's first big hint. The second being IB literally states "bring the best gear" and you'd be foolish to think that trials isn't meant to be the same way. So we know now things are meant to be imbalanced. But hang on, it's actually more balanced then you think! If we all are (supposedly) using the same weapons with the best rolls guess what? No one has a weapon advantage! so it's all about skill as a player then which ironically is used in almost every hate thread about "same weapon spam" in these game types. [u]We want variety![/u] Don't we all? The problem here is that variety means a different amount to each person. Originally it was just the last word,hawkmoon, and thorn at the top. then we got the MIDA, vex, and red death. but people still ask for more. So tell me. We know have the capability to re roll any legendary (from HoW/iron banner) into perfect rolls. So please tell me. How much more variety can we even get? [u]Time to kill chart counter.[/u] I do not have the link. But basically people have been copying and pasting this TTK chart as a counter to prove said weapons are broken in terms of power. Now TTK is a very important stat. But sadly the chart is flawed. The TTK is achieved because on paper it's assumed to be in perfect conditions. No room for human error or compensation. No room for map advantages etc. Basically what i'm getting at is just because it has the kill potential doesn't mean that's the average. And honestly if we talked strictly TTK as the end all be all for power then both Universal remote and No land beyond are broken beyond belief because they can one shot. Hawkmoon too provided you luck out. [u]Common thorn complaints.[/u] I could list for days. But basically people cite a few things. it's "sniper" ability. it's "monster aim assist." and it's RoF at the same value as last word. First. Look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WIVLXxfPFM Basically this effectively shuts down any complaint about thorns monster aim assist. because the difference isn't even visible compared to hawkmoon which as only 15 points less aim assist. But also because red hand with hidden hand actually has the most aim assist on primaries and that is clearly visible! Next. it's sniping capability. Destiny IS NOT a standard shooter. Meaning range for everything (sans shotguns) dictates damage drop off. Not how far bullets go. Secondly at "sniper range" both snipers and scouts have better zoom, aim assist, less recoil on scouts per shot, and the ability to OHK at any range on snipers. Where as a hand cannon user gets no benefit from aim assist at those ranges, has no zoom, and has to deal with the monsterous visual/actual recoil per shot. Simply put the hand cannon can compete at that range but has much more working against it. If a player can snipe with a hand cannon it's because they are good. Oh and the RoF matching last word doesn't prove anything. LW still fires faster because the stat means different things for the guns. [u]Last word complaints.[/u] More or less takes a few from thorn in the complaints. so we will just copy and paste my answers. range doesn't matter because of what I stated earlier. It's got the fastest TTK of primaries excluding UR/NLB. true! However they need to be hipfire headshots. which even with the added benefits from the perks is still a difficult feat. And while you can simple hold the trigger down if you move at all while doing so your accuracy tanks. In order to actually make effective use of the hipfire bonus accuracy and damage you need to tap the trigger at the right times. And it's biggest advantage is that it's the best 1v1 gun. True. but if you have to fight more then one person at the same time you most likely die. this is because even at your worst and you 4 shot body shot both you can't miss at all and it relies on the 2 enemies to have worse aim combined then you to finish you first. [u]shotguns/blink OP.[/u] I will be the first to admit I defended the crap out of this. And I still do. But I will admit stepping back I can understand the frustration. But I'm here to tell you neither the shotgun or blink are the real issue. It's the map design. 90% of the maps currently in pvp cater to the exact ranges shotguns/blink/and hand cannons dominate in. Plus we also have movement abilities and unlimited sprint. In short if we want to see more of other types of guns (AR's excluded cause they need a damage buff) being used then we need more maps like widows court. [u]Hunters OP in pvp because of their supers.[/u] The evidence for this claim is that if you check an average hunter main they have more super kills then the other classes. and that most of the top players run hunters. This was countered ages ago. This is the reason because of 2 things. 1) hunters have more control over their supers. but they trade off this extra control by being easier to be killed mid super and that if they die when popping a super they lose it. 2) warlocks and titans have a habit of expending supers on single targets. Granted this is fine if you do so to counter another super or to kill someone with heavy. But for the most part you will see people just using it on one average threat target simply because they want a kill. If every single warlock/titan saved their supers to make plays on heavy ammo spawns or flag caps their super ratio would go up much more. [u]titans are the weakest in pvp.[/u] Simply un true. they are the hardest to use. Titans have the best nades (lightning and suppressor) titans have the ability to one hit almost anyone with their standard melee. this includes people mid super. Titans can carry 2 of the best nades in the game with an exotic. unstoppable fist of havoc Pretty much lets you live through anything. Defender titan with max armor improved force barrier with armor of light bubble will need a super to un root them. Titans are single handedly responsible for the unlimited super tactic in pvp because they have several methods to spawn orbs. even if you straight pop a defenders bubble with nova bomb thats 3 orbs right their for his entire team. almost enough for a super. Weapons of light lets you basically one hit people with most snipers and the hawkmoon can reg 2-1 shot if damage proc for one shot. Blessing with improved blessing is extra health on the go and is always able to be refreshed. Simply put anyone who has this mindset just doesn't know how to use a titan or is expecting too much. Think that pretty much covers it! if I forgot any misconceptions for pvp please let me know and I'll re edit the OP with my response~ thanks for reading <3

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  • Bump.

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  • I love this

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  • You're wrong. The original "killer" was suros. You couldn't find a single match anywhere that almost an entire team wasn't using it. Hand cannons weren't even an after thought. You might see a Hawkmoon here and there, but HC's were nowhere near as prevalent as they are now. With the nerfing of auto rifles due to so called "popularity" they were destroyed in pvp [b]and[/b] pve. Even fusion rifles were destroyed.

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    • Sign if you read the entire post.

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    • An absolutely stupid and incorrect post.

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      • [quote] Titans have the best nades (lightning and suppressor) titans have the ability to one hit almost anyone with their standard melee. Titans can carry 2 of the best nades in the game with an exotic [/quote] I disagree with a lot i see there, but this is where i have a problem. Since hunters can super glitch grenades to give them an instant super with the right armor, that is now the best grenade. Lightning grenade is good if the enemy team sucks. Just shoot it and its gone. Supressor, lol if only you knew how often it doesnt work because of its small blast radius. Have to stick them unless they arent moving (never). We get an exotic that lets us carry 2 grenades? Warlocks get that with a perk. Thats not all, how about the exotics that replenish grenade energy on respawn? Combine those and you have a class. Shoulder charge is not titan standard melee, it takes a perk. Very easy to dodge if you have your eyes open. *think of it like this: a TITAN (brute force) will never win a melee battle against a warlock even if the titan punches first. They have almost double the range for a melee plus an overshield ON HIT. (Even life steal now) Hunters have a standard melee that is long range and can get you down to red with a crit, and if speced right, can throw another for the kill

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        • At first I thought you missed spelled miscellaneous lol

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        • Gj sir. Good read.

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          Excuse me sir but i hold square to dismantle

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          • Edited by Lord Vetinari: 6/14/2015 3:27:37 PM
            Thorn is OP..... get over it It is not just OP, it is completely broken. and I have one, it is so broken I don't use it unless we are badly behind for the pure reason that it is so good it is almost cheating

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            • If I hold x, I jump and nothing else...

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              • One thing I'd add to this is something about Shoulder Charge. Yes, it can be countered by a shotgun fairly easily, but with my time with it in Crucible, I've come to the conclusion that you really aren't supposed to shoulder charge people head-on (especially if they clearly have you in their sights). It's an excellent tool for taking people by surprise and for killing those distracted by your teammates. It's also very good for killing people trying to run away, provided you don't pursue them for too long. Now, this isn't me saying that Shoulder Charge is amazing or anything (I've only ever found the ability to be fairly decent), I'm only trying to say the people who constantly complain about dieing to shotguns while trying to implant their shoulder into another person's skull are, quite frankly, using it wrong.

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                • That's like, your opinion man. Those aren't misconceptions. That's what you think. Don't post what you think as fact, it's misleading and wrong.

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                  • Very well written post. Thank you for this insight. I hope more people see this and take it on board

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                  • Edited by mrsjimmymare: 6/14/2015 2:30:05 PM
                    Are you saying that TLW gets hipfire bonus dmg from Aiming Down Sight is a myth? Are you also agreeing that Handcannons should have range longer than Pulse? If Handcannon can be used to snipe and that shows the player is skilled because he can (according to your words), then please explain the use of Sniper Rifles. Thank you. Can we agree on whether there is a short invulnerability after teleportation (both Hunter and Warlock has this) that can allow player to use Shotgun without getting damaged? There is nothing wrong with Thorn being a better gun, but when it's an all around gun - you can close range and long range with it, you can headshots or bodyshots wait for damage to kill that player. That's why a lot of players are spamming the hell out of this gun. Also I don't think Hunters Super is OP, and I don't think Titan is the weakest. :) And I swear this forum has the worst spellcheck ever. LOL. XD

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                    • I rarely read long posts, but I did read all of yours. I personally thought it was right on target.

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                      • Edited by Father Giliam: 6/14/2015 2:26:38 PM
                        Well written, but starts off very flawed with a misunderstanding on what "overpowered" is. Just because something can be beat by skill, does not mean it is suddenly not overpowered. Overpowered means a weapon/item/ability in a game is so powerful that they close skill gaps by themselves and to not use those weapons/items/ability puts you at a disadvantage. Basically look at it this way: If 2 players are exactly at the same skill level (impossible I know) and 1 of those players uses a certain weapon while the other does not. If the person using that weapon is near gaurenteed to win that fight because of said weapon, then it is overpowered (can be somewhat gray area due to situational weapons but generally true). There are several weapons that do this in Destiny. You also mention that it is alright that there are clear cut top guns. Outside of the Gjallarhorn, Bungie has said this is not what they want. You also mention Halo as an example to support this. However, Destiny and Halo work very differently. While it is true the BR was the best weapon in pretty much every situation, the difference is every player had access to this weapon either because they started with it (Halo 2) or it was a weapon laying around (Halo 3). In Destiny you are not given weapons at the start of the match nor do you find weapons around the map (special ammo and heavy ammo yes). This creates an imbalance. In the end you can't please everyone but to act as though things are fine as is would be ignoring the problem. I'm not saying to nerf these things into oblivion (hell, the Last Word needs a PvE buff) like they did with autos, they are just seriously in need of a small rebalance (and fix in the case of Thorn and Last Word as they both have bugs that make them unintentionally more powerful).

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                        • As a hunter I feel awesome if I can dance a two hit super on a fist of havoc. Now we end up trading but it's better than me being the only one to die.

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                          • Bump.

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                          • Seems pretty spot on. It's a shame it will be outnumbered by the nerf this that and it's mother posts within minutes.

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                            • Bump

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                            • Ilu

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                              • 10/10

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                              • than*

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                                • Fantastic post. Nailed it. 10/10

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