1. I'm discussing a scenario where both people are on the same playing field skill wise, if we're talking about top players, if one has Thorn and the other has let's say a "coiled hiss" the Thorn will win ever time if both are landing shots. That'll land 2 headshots and walk away, GG. Talking about missing or mag size it's just throwing pointless variables at the argument. 2. You can't hold primaries to the same standard of TTK as special weapons like shotguns or snipers, that's legit the dumbest thing I ever heard. If that was the case we might as well throw rockets and LMG's into the discussion lol. Actually funny thing is if we're talking Thorn, it actually can compete with snipers since it's a 2 shot potential is pretty high. Hell some LMG's don't kill in 2-3 bullets, which makes your argument even more amusing. 3. I don't even remember the last time I got killed by a fusion rifle. That's the funny thing. I think every time I ran into a fusion rifle user most they did was get me weak and I just killed them with TLW/Thorn or a shotgun. Almost everyone who I know used fusion rifles says they were destroyed and aren't as reliable killers at shotguns anymore. I don't or run into any good players who use fusion rifles period in crucible. 4. Lol cute. I know a lot of great players who stopped playing destiny once they realized how it was turning into a low TTK shooter. It just wasn't appealing anymore. Either went to do GB's in CoD, or went back to Halo or CS. I don't blame any of them.