[quote]There are so many ways to pick this post apart. As a day one player that owns and has tried every exotic/raid/event weapon to date I can say Thorn is OP compared to most weapons if not all. Saying that a Thorn has been beaten before by lesser guns does not make the gun balanced. All that says is that it is not perfect.[/quote] First let me say I appreciate your taking time to respond and not just tell me I'm wrong. Day one also and have Thorn and there is no way I would put it at the top of my exotics let alone anything else. MIDA and Red Death are Vastly superior weapons in my opinion. MIDA is probably the single most underrated exotic there is. Stable as hell, nice impact lightning reload, awesome RoF and unlike Felwinter's, it literally is the best Sniper Rifle in the game. Red Death is the single most devastating weapon I've seen when in capable hands. Two bursts is death and the RoF trumps pretty much anything with that much impact. It's the only weapon in the game that I actually consider a harder challenge to face. [quote]If a terrible PvP player that can't ever get a positive k/d to save his life puts on a Thorn and suddenly becomes John mother trucking Wayne, going positive the rest of the night then it is not a balanced weapon.[/quote] Give a terrible PvP player Thorn and they're going to continue to be terrible. Give a decent player Thorn and they may go positive the rest of the night, but that doesn't make Thorn op. When you go into a match with the confidence you can succeed, it goes a long way to being successful. When you think your going to lose before you start, you pretty much already have. Hence the feather. [quote]Many of my friends only use the Thorn or TLW for this reason alone. The guns over-powered abilities and damage output can counter a lack of skill.[/quote] So your friends lack skill? Thorn has exactly one great ability, it's DoT and take that away and it's trash. [quote]My problem with the Thorn doesn't come from that, it comes from how ridiculously easy it is to kill someone with it in a short amount of time. If you space out shots minutely then you can two shot almost anyone with body shots.[/quote] Unless they've suffered previous damage, this is not true at all. I've taken 2 shots from Thorn literally hundreds of times and lived after taking cover. [quote]You don't even have to aim a Thorn, just hip fire in their general direction and squeeze the trigger as fast as you can. Odds are you'll land the two to three shots you need to win before you die (or the DoT will get you a wonderful kill if you do die).[/quote] Thorn's recoil is pretty huge and it's RoF is not very great. Are you talking running up behind someone unaware? If so then maybe, but you're not going to spaz-hip-fire and win many gunfights vs opponents firing back. [quote]This is the reason why no one like COD anymore, it makes the PvP a matter of who saw who first. Where's the fun in that?[/quote] If that's the argument you're going to make, it further takes away from Thorn's effectiveness. It doesn't matter if you see someone first with Thorn, because the second your first shot hits, the burn effect on their screen tells them what you're bringing, to take cover and what they need to do to counter you. [quote]I play a lot of IB and a ton of Trials of Osiris. For reference, I have been to the lighthouse four times. I do not use exotic weapons, mostly because I like using some legendaries I consider my trophy weapons (Adepts, IB, etc.). The two guns I saw the most (not killed the most by or most noticed) were the Thorn and TLW.[/quote] So you saw them the most, but weren't killed by either the most. So what exactly is your argument? [quote]Why do you think this is? Because almost everyone I encountered so far just happens to have similar play styles? No. It's because they all are aware of the ease of use these guns provide.[/quote] They're all part of a herd, hence the term [i]herd mentality[/i]. [quote]Don't get me wrong, I don't want hand cannons to be nerfed into oblivion like my poor Grim Citizen, but trying to say these exotic hand cannons aren't ruining the fun and balance of PvP is just not right.[/quote] So you didn't like you're favorite weapon f***ed with, so that makes this argument even more curious. For the record, I had zero issue with the AR damage dropping off sooner, but never supported the overall damage nerf. That said, I can still easily get kills with Abyss Defiant in PvP. Great, great weapon. [quote]I can beat players using Thorns most of the time, it's something you have to do nowadays, It's just frustrating to run into it every time I spawn.[/quote] What's frustrating is that you can write that first sentence after this entire post. I literally died to Thorn 5 times at most in hours of IB last night and never once died from the poison. You know how easy it is to stop, but you despise the [b]IDEA[/b] of Thorn. It feels cheap to you when they get that kill here or there, but it's no different than the feeling you get when someone hides and snipes all game. Generally in IB week I'm between 1.4-1.8 k/d overall throughout the week. Going up against all the hand cannon/shotgun combos that are all the rage right now, I was at well over 3 last night. It's easy pickings with the right approach and a weapon you trust. Again, if you're dying to them less than they die to you, how is it not your weapon that's op in those battles?

You should try using the Thorn again and tell me you can't shoot it insanely fast with decent accuracy. You would be lying if you said you couldn't. I'm not arguing that I struggle with all the Thorns in PvP now, I'm arguing that it is a tad ridiculous at how many you see and how easy it makes for players with no skill at all suddenly appear "good". Please don'y kid yourself saying you can't get two shot by a Thorn. If you are not maxed out in Armor then you can easily be two shot with it. My secondary is a Warlock that I run Recovery and Agility on. Thorns are the bane of my existence then. However, you do help my case by mentioning the Red Death. It is glorious in the right hands. IN THE RIGHT HANDS. It takes precision and patience to use. It takes skill. My argument is the Thorn doesn't. The Thorn has an insane amount of impact, range, and stability (if perfect balance is selected) compared to other hand cannons. So saying it has trash perks is just not correct. Aggressive ballistics and Send it are all you need to make this thing a bleeding Praedyth's Revenge with twice the target acquisition. My argument about seeing Thorn the most is that it has become annoying. It has turned into a Thorn fest where Destiny used to have a larger variety. The main problem I have with most online games is that people with find the most OP set up and weapons, then just use that until a new patch or game comes out. I don't blame the players. They're just trying to give themselves the best chances of success. That does not mean the game is balanced though. Check my past couple of games on my Titan. I clearly don't struggle with Thorn users. But to answer your last question: I change my load out and play style depending on the map and other team's set up. Sometimes I use Pulse rifles and shotguns. Sometimes it's hand cannons and snipers. I change my set up to fit my need. Thorn users don't have to do that. It doesn't matter what the case is. Thorn can do it. Range? Got it. RoF? Good enough. It's the most OP gun in the hands of the incapable. I'm arguing against the Thorn because I've used it in the past, I see it a lot. I know it's OP. Basically, I'm saying you need to see the Thorn from a general, casual players perspective, not yours. It makes PvP unplayable without it for some. I don't want all hand cannons nerfed. I don't want the Thorn or TLW to be unusable. I do want balance. I want all players with all weapons to stand a chance.

If Thorn had no DoT, would anyone use it?