The real endgame isn’t clearing the raid. It is finding 5 other competent people to raid with. I doubt Bungie actually play tests how hard it is to actually find a decent team in the wild. Otherwise they’d probably not focus so much on raids as the PVE end game. For any competent player. You’d have to dodge the following on LFG if you don’t already have a group to play with. 1. The “Bros” or sometimes a clan. These guys can’t shut up and even if their group could clear a raid in 30 min, they won’t because they are too busy bragging and circle jerking each other to actually get it done. As if anyone on LFG wants to hear them act like peacocks. 2. The group with a girl. This group will suck because at least two of the males will go “OMG gamer girl.” Their brains will stop working while they try to get the girl’s attention. Having to hear this train wreck is vomit inducing. The exception to this rule are the “carriers”. Twice I’ve blitzed through a raid on LFG. Towards the end of the raid the group started talking about work gossip and who got fired who gets along with the manager AND how many more runs they have left for the day. Then you realize what is going on and thank the lord for getting you an invite into the speed running group who’s playing on other people’s account. 3. The group with a “couple”. Lord help anyone in this group. Usually the BF tries to act like an alpha to lead the group because his GF is there. But the guy is incapable and things devolve into a -blam!- show. Usually the GF sucks and you realize the BF is trying to get the other 4 to carry the GF. 4. Smokers and pot heads. Smokers will double the length of any run because they will need a 5 - 10 min smoke break after every encounter. Pot heads. These guys continually -blam!- up and waste everyone’s time and they can’t shut up. 5. Any LFG party 6 weeks or more after the release of a raid, or the drops being updated. 6 weeks later, most of the people who can run a raid effectively are gone. They got what they want and won’t tolerate the hell of LFG any longer. To any smart -blam!- who thinks forming your own party is the solution is wrong. You just end up as the person who has to filter through a mass of applicants.

My personal problem has never really been how mechanically complex the raids are but rather the importance of the mechanics. Everyone could be doing their part well, but then one person having a slip-up can cause a full wipe. It puts a massive amount of pressure on people to perform their role correctly or risk being the sole cause of a wipe. This makes it so playing with inexperienced people is often a hindrance, if you aren't specifically going out of your way to teach them. This feeling has, unfortunately, been the sole reason I find it difficult to want to join a raid I'm inexperienced in or haven't done in a while. The jumping puzzles are also annoying as heck on repeat playthroughs. They're great the first and maybe second time, but become painful and annoying very quickly. I wish there was a way that you could unlock a skip after you've done them a couple times. EDIT: I guess I should mention that I'm wanting to just ignore mechanics. The mechanics are what make the encounters special and memorable. What I would love to see it is if the mechanics were just a bit more forgiving. Like, if someone is inexperienced and just trying to learn, then them making a single mistake doesn't end up setting the team back or cause a failure. Though it might be a bit too complex to code, imagine a sort of "strike" system where the game checks how many times you've completed an encounter and how long ago your last one was and gives you, specifically, a number of mistakes you can make before it considers your attempt as a failure. Each wipe reduces the amount of forgiveness, as you're getting the hang of it and should be learning. This way, you can learn the encounter without hindering the enjoyment of the rest of the team.

Exactly the reason why i only do garden , vog , kingsfall , last wish , crota , deep stone . Everything else is just pure bs . Loved leviathan , spire , eater and ghalran too but they removed it to make room for shi raids . Tbh those new raids could have been destiny 3 raids but they just had to f up destiny 2 with new content while the game was already great . Even vow man . Tbh its not even that fun . Since they came up with that witness clown the game just does not feel like destiny 2 anymore . Its more like destiny 2 with destiny 3 nonsense ..

‘Wrath of the Machine’ was one of the best Raids that had such great balance. Was the last Raid for myself that was actually FUN all the way through. Players made mistakes and you pushed on and laughed more than apologized. I’m all for challenging content, Make a Master version and give out golden emblems and any other items that make those that need to boast, boast. BUT, there should be a normal version that is standard like WRATH, to learn from and actually have FUN with. You adapt and then raise the bar. Now it’s more buffs, more timers, more symbols to memorize, more roles and LESS room for errors. Because if you make mistakes and cause a wipe, it’s being kicked from the raid. Something needs to change to allow more average players to have a chance and be able to participate.

Sounds like S.I. to me

They should aim for action and fun, wotm was the one.

You think DP is mechanically complex? What's complex about it? Everyone picks a role before an encounter starts, and then they do it for the encounter. Unless you're doing challenges where everyone needs to swap roles, you only need to focus on what you're doing.

Desert perpetual mechanically is very easy. Even day 1 mechanics were easy it was only the damage checks that mopped raid teams, edp was a small amount more mechanically but again still simple, it was no vault or verity, both on day 1 that were brute forced.

The ones I think are in the realm of where I enjoy the difficulty are VOG, Crota, Deep Stone, Root, and Kings Fall. Garden may be in the same category but I haven’t done much. I love Vow, but it’s not been LFG friendly for me personally. I have not done a full run of Last Wish, Desert, or Salvations Edge so I can’t really comment about those.

[quote] about to make fun of me. [/quote] i cant believe you’re too stupid to do raids lmao

Imagine still thinking there's more raids coming.