While I do feel like the raids towards the end of the game have got way too complicated with mechanics for average players... I feel like most of what has been holding more people back has been a fear of interacting with people and having no social skills. It's a story as old as time and you can read the posts back to the beginning of this game about it. The raids are awesome... The most memorable part of playing this game... But people can't get past having to play with people to do them. That's not a bungie problem, that's a player problem.

Unless I missed it in your post, theres a massive hole in your reasoning : Raids can only be played IF you have bought that dlc (if its required and not f2p) Not all accounts created are paid players, there is a substantial amount of players that are f2p. Theres a portion of the accounts created that are either recovery accounts being made to sell, New f2p accounts that were caught cheating and just creating a new account, or casual players that never buy dlcs. (typically never buy dlcs) Theres also a portion of accounts that people simply never played, and just were not interested in the game. Made an account and logged few hours. All of these are variables that are not accounted for in your numbers and therefore your reasoning. Destiny is one of few games that are fps and have true pve multiplayer content. Raids is what Destiny was famous for since D1, and continue to be popular now. In my opinion, its not specifically raids pushing any players away. Any player can go on the many apps/sites to start raiding. Thats literally how I stepped into raids in D2. LFG, and I was honest, told every fireteam if I had exp or not. I bounced if they didnt want to teach (not their responsibility to teach anyone). After I learned the raid, I would post my own lfg and try to bring at least one or two players to sherpa (and learning other peoples tactics along the way). Eventually through that I found a clan that I meshed well with, and we have been knocking off raid master challenges ever since.

You make some good points but I have a very different view. For each raid Bungie has created they could have made a Warmind size update to the game with a new planetary patrol space with lost sectors, public events and at least two strikes among a 4 to 6 Campaign missions. That would serve the majority of Destiny players but we patrollers get even less than the PvP brigade get and that is saying something. Making it a paid update neatly sidesteps the issue of free to play players getting something for nothing.

Well said

[quote] But the thing I have noticed with clans and friends is that, in a nutshell, the overall consensus is this. "I grind harder and harder content to tedium just so I can possibly try the raid at the end, rinse and repeat". What that actually means in all practicality is that the raid IS the main focus and if you aren't going to be able, for whatever reason, to realistically obtain the proper levels, gear, friend group, help, investment time and skill, none of which are optional. Then you are left with a short story, some side content aside from all that to justify playtime at all. Which is fine, but here's the real world, rubber meets the road fact check.[/quote] No one needs to grind harder content to tedium to 'try' the raid. Raids outside of contest combat wise are very easy and forgiving. You don't need the best gear etc. The grind to tedium for the best gear armor sets etc would be highly recommend though for the 'true end game' of doing contest mode raids and dungeons for day 1 (which aren't a thing anymore so....) Raids can take time and a modicum amount of skill especially going in blind with 6 players, you'll need at least 1 person who can think critically and solve puzzles. Those that don't want to invest the time or think critically, there's a myriad of ways to learn the puzzles and mechanics outside of the game. They've already cut the grind down by a ton with multiperk weapons and there are easier raids available to do... Your numbers are also heavily skewed. You're not accounting for the actual active playerbase; you're just taking the total number of made accounts into factor. If you do that, look at the same % of people who have completed a GM strike or hell finished the campaign, or played a gambit match of all things...

I mean you could have some ground to say raids take up more resources than they are worth given the numbers and that other content would be better as a result, sure, but to say it caused the overall decline is asinine. Cause an easier mode would see a fair uptick in engagement in full raid. Which takes a lot of wind out of that sail. Disposable and timed content rubbed people wrong, removing overleveling took an important handicap for no thumbs, narrowing the band for viable builds, DLCs with weak stories and content. That’s what drove the decline. Some of that’s been reversed but it is a case of too little too late, FS was the last straw for too many. The quick and disposable mentality towards content along with sterile engagement metric goalposts. Taken King, Forsaken and Shadowkeep didn’t have those attitudes in their making and that’s why those eras were so good. But also we have a part to play. This gotta min max smash as fast as humanly possible cheese ever encounter mentality on players parts limits what they can make, especially for content that’s more grind wheel than complex end game activities. Early Destiny was more like that. The sweaty meta cheese clone army play style mentality they crept in at its on the rise of online popularity is what ruined the game. Efficiency is for robots, not a formula for fun.

Raids are not soley to blame. I could list a dozen factors that contributed to collapse of the player base, and ultimately the death of Destiny 2.

No no no to this post, the biggest thing ive seen is this forum is people -blam!- to use a mic. Its a mmo with raids you need to communicate and there is so much I dont wanna speak in the forums its unreal. It wouldn't matter what bungie did raids should be hard, raids should also be focused towards endgame players. Most raids in this game are not hard, most are go here do this stand here deposit this. It rarely deviates. If people were willing to speak and not have this delusion a mmo is designed 100% for solo players more people would raid.

[quote]those that are left will argue the point, but it is a point that the silent majority have dealt with since the implementation of raids with Vault Of Glass. However, once the seasonal model became the norm, this codified the inherent, baked in exclusivity of this model and bottlenecked the player count which has led to the overall decline of the game numbers in general. No fluff, I have managed clans, The100.io LFG groups and much more over the years. I would consider myself actually a below average player cmpared to most "raiders" but if you count the silent majority, fairly average. But the thing I have noticed with clans and friends is that, in a nutshell, the overall consensus is this. "I grind harder and harder content to tedium just so I can possibly try the raid at the end, rinse and repeat". What that actually means in all practicality is that the raid IS the main focus and if you aren't going to be able, for whatever reason, to realistically obtain the proper levels, gear, friend group, help, investment time and skill, none of which are optional. Then you are left with a short story, some side content aside from all that to justify playtime at all. Which is fine, but here's the real world, rubber meets the road fact check. Only an estimated 11% to 15% of all Destiny players have ever completed at least one raid. Because Destiny is a massive live-service game with millions of registered accounts, the vast majority of its player base is highly casual and never engages with this endgame content. The Breakdown: Total Completions: Across the lifetime of the game, only about \(11\% - 18\%\) of all created accounts earn a raid completion achievement.Active Player Variance: Among players who log in regularly during a current season, that number can bump up to \(20\% - 30\%\) depending on how accessible or popular the specific raid is.The "Hardcore" Minority: While millions of runs are logged, a HUGE chunk of the total raids are completed by a dedicated percentage of the player base running them REPEATEDLY. For example, data from platforms like Raid Report shows that players with seven or more completions are often in the top \(30\%\) of all raiders.Day-One Raids: The most difficult tier of raiding attracts an even smaller fraction. Day-one raid completions often see success rates below \(1\%\) to \(0.003\%\) of participating teams. What does all that mean in summary? The reason why Bungies player base dwindled is due to the fact that they are making the best content and focused effort for a minority of the players in their game. And as a business model it is foolish to not think the player base would inevitably dwindle and dry up. To not point this out as an inherent, franchise killing flaw is the result of of the loudest players and those that monetise the game with content as a minority that 's always demanding MORE. While my extensive real life interactions and experince confirms this without a doubt, the rhetoric always shifts to peoples personal wants and desires. In other words, the few that raid and the fewer that complete them have literally choked out casual players, whether they realize it or not. NOT a blame post. But one that wants a healthy community that can sustain a franchise with understanding and communication amongst ALL it's player base. Suggestions for potential future development. 1). Cut the grind down. People play because they are having fun, want gear and enjoy the comradory. Many have abandoned the game just for tedium alone. If Bungie wants an engaged player base, just give them a good time. 2). Entry level raids- The bar is too high and numbers don't lie. After the initial raid race an easier version, with mechanics simplified and possible exclusion of the final boss or some variant, would be far more realist goal and incentive for far more players and hence broaden the audience that could realistically engage and bring others along to do the same. 3). Outsource a proper LFG that doesn't encourage the worst of posts like micless perfection runs as a main staple. Expanding further on the idea of in game elitism is the overtaking of forums, group finders and the like. Sherpa runs should be encouraged and rewarded by Bungie instead of being left to devolve into a shallow and frustrating time consumer that is quite unfriendly to average and newer players. Down vote this, make rude comments while you pound your tiny chest. I truly don't care and don't respond to that nonsense. I just want the game I enjoy and the people I have had the privelage of experiencing some of the greatest moments in gaming with to not be minimalized and dismissed. Because if you TRULY want a new Destiny game, we have to be aunified community that is WORTH making it for with numbers that make sense. See you starside Guardians.[/quote] This!!

Explorer mode ftw

No need for insults. I have a big chest because I work out.