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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Mythic: 4/2/2020 9:26:55 AM
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Mythic

Alright Bungie, it’s time you face the music.

Due to the length of this, I’ve shortened it using spoilers. I’m gonna start with something simple for you to understand. The word fun by definition means enjoyable, now I’m not sure what your dictionaries definition says but it’s far from enjoyable; in fact, I believe your definition may very well be the opposite. I don’t know what happened with Shadowkeep, you had the perfect opportunity to show your players how good Destiny can be, but instead you chose to nerf us into the ground. We as Guardians are supposed to be god-like, not leafs that can blow in the wind (although your boss stomp mechanics would suggest otherwise). With the launch of Shadowkeep, you not only destroyed the power fantasy this game had but you also decided to turn the game into some kind of bounty grind-fest. Neither of these decisions are enjoyed by anyone. [quote]Let me just explain something for a second.[/quote] [u]Power Fantasy[/u]: [spoiler]When I refer to power fantasy, I’m not referring to infinite reload. The removal of that mechanic was warranted and welcomed by everyone, except the people pursuing their 1K Voices (just add a Quest already FFS). When I think of power fantasy, I think of enemies that were previously able to shred me just by looking my way; now taking at least 3-4 shots to take me out. Getting 1HK slapped by a red bar minion at the same power level as you doesn’t feel good at all! This change you made to light/power was awful, no matter how high you climb you’ll always be just as weak to the enemy.[/spoiler] [u]Bounty Grind[/u] [spoiler]Bounties are supposed to be things to complete on the side while doing other things in the game. They are not supposed to be required to even possibly earn XP. Activities themselves should reward XP upon completion. Something like this: Nightfalls 10,000 XP Ordeal Nightfalls 4,000 XP (Adept & Hero) Ordeal Nightfalls 15,000 XP (Legend & Master) Ordeal Nightfalls 20,000 XP (Grandmaster) Strikes 4,000 XP Gambit 10,000 XP Raids 60,000 XP (All) Reckoning 2,000 XP (Tier 1) Reckoning 4,000 XP (Tier 2) Reckoning 6,000 XP (Tier 3) Crucible 5,000 XP Trials 20,000 XP (Flawless/Lighthouse) Menagerie 10,000 XP Daily Story Missions 2,000 XP[/spoiler] [quote]Moving on...[/quote] You got so many things right with Forsaken, we all thought it was the first step to the best gaming experience around. But then you had to go and ruin it all. Shadowkeep was the start of a serious decline of fun and enjoyable content, which gets even worse every Season. You need to make some serious changes, starting with separating the PvP and PvE sandboxes. Too many times you’ve nerfed something just because of PvP, not even thinking of the consequences it’d have in PvE. I’m just gonna say it, your Seasonal model isn’t working. The content is bland and the rewards are non existent. You need to go back to making expansions. They don’t have to be big, they just have to be enjoyable. Maybe every Season you could just freshen up a few activities in the game. [b][u]Light / Power[/u][/b]: [spoiler]I love having a goal, something to chase, but it has to matter. Let’s just take Season of the Worthy for example: We were all at 960, while the new activity was 980 recommended. The bunker was 1000, the legendary lost sectors were 1030. Why the hell did you make the lost sectors 1030? The average player can only reach 1000, do you really expect us to increase the artifact to +30 Power? Everyone enjoys having a challenge, but that challenge needs to be optional and not forced. If you’re going to make something that much higher than the hard cap, make it optional. Let’s take nightmare hunts for example, you can choose the difficulty. If I were to raise my Power level to 1030, red bar minions could still slap me once and kill me! Even in strikes now when that stupid ass blackout modifier is active, you die instantly from a dreg. Getting killed like that is not fun, it’s as if Power doesn’t even matter, that’s a huge problem.[/spoiler] [b][u]XP Gains[/u][/b]: [spoiler]There is a few different ways you could fix this shortage. 1. Lower the Season Rank and Artifact Level requirements by 75%. 2. Increase XP bonus gains through the Season pass 20% at a time. 3. Reward large amounts of XP from completing activities as previously mentioned above. If you really expect us to earn +30 Artifact Power then something has to change. [/spoiler] [b][u]Power Fantasy[/u][/b]: [spoiler]Why’d you take it away in the first place, is fun no longer allowed? Return our Power, I don’t know if it was lost as a result of you removing our 50 Levels or what but something changed and not for the better. Did you straight up nerf our armor, what’d you do? Stop nerfing our PvE abilities. Yes I know skull-nova was out of hand and deserved it, but that’s the only exception. Why’d you nerf Orpheus Rigs? Why’d you nerf Orbs of Light? That shit was uncalled for and absolutely unreasonable! Edit: Everything below this line was added after the original post. ——————————————————————— I believe the quote below is the root cause of Power frustration, I pulled it from the Shadowkeep patch notes. Anything you see in (parentheses) was added by me to help you better understand it. [quote][b][u]PvE DIFFICULTY TUNING[/u][/b] [b][i]Goals:[/i][/b] Widen the sweet spot where fighting higher-level combatants provides a fun, challenging, and rewarding combat experience for a more enjoyable Power climb. Also, allow players looking for even greater challenges to confront much higher-level enemies. • Combatants (minions) that are 10–40 levels higher take less time to kill and deal less damage. • Higher-level combatants (such as Champions, Mini-bosses, & Bosses) will continue to increase in difficulty up to 100 Power levels above the player. • When enemies are 100 Power levels or higher above the player, they are immune to damage. • Nameplate icons on Higher-level combatants have been updated to reflect these changes. • These changes affect only Higher-level combatants; the at-level or over-level experience remains unchanged.[/quote] Let me interpret that for you: Higher-level combatants when in activities above your pinnacle power cap will never get any easier to kill. Raising your Artifact Power will only change the icon above the enemies head and slightly increase your damage reduction when under fire. The Artifact is actually working against the player because it’s increasing your Power level beyond that of your weapons. It’s the same as pulling a 750 weapon from your vault and taking it with you into a 1030 activity. Increasing your Power level through the Artifact is nerfing your weapons, while simultaneously changing the symbol above the enemies head; leading you to believe your Power bonus actually matters. [/spoiler] End Rant

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  • Nice breakdown of your feedback. Very well organized. As many have stated already in the comments, many people find different things "fun." We're always looking to create a [i]menagerie[/i] of activities to give different flavors of fun for players depending on their mood or how far along they are in the progression. Some players enjoy collecting everything, others like the feeling of overcoming a really difficult encounter, and many just like to recline back and mow down some monsters with space magic. [quote]We were all at 960, while the new activity was 980 recommended. The bunker was 1000, the legendary lost sectors were 1030. Why the hell did you make the lost sectors 1030? The average player can only reach 1000, do you really expect us to increase the artifact to +30 Power?[/quote] We definitely didn't expect most players to increase the artifact by 30. The Legendary Lost Sectors are set at 1000 Power not 1030. We expect them to be challenging early on and then become more manageable as players power up and then eventually overpower them with a combination of pinnacle rewards and artifact power. The Bunkers scale with players similar to how Gambit works. So they will maintain a similar difficulty at 750 and 1000+. We were looking to have the Bunker upgrades be a way for you to make this activity become easier to clear rather than just power level alone. A giant robot backing you up is hopefully doing the trick. Thanks for the feedback on XP. I'll share that with others on the team. We've seen a lot of feedback asking to increase XP gain on completing activities. [quote]The Artifact is actually working against the player because it’s increasing your Power level beyond that of your weapons. It’s the same as pulling a 750 weapon from your vault and taking it with you into a 1030 activity. Increasing your Power level through the Artifact is nerfing your weapons, while simultaneously changing the symbol above the enemies head; leading you to believe your Power bonus actually matters.[/quote] I don't believe this is true, at least not by design. If there was an issue affecting the application of artifact power I think we would be seeing a ton of reports from the community. If you have any evidence that increasing artifact power is making your weapons do less damage, please send it over.

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    • Edited by MajorOpossum993: 4/1/2020 8:49:54 PM
      Great post. Sadly Bungies too busy with their overwatch clone to take any of it into account. Edit: Grammar

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      • Do you know what I find fun? Having my favourite weapons get "vaulted" or "left behind". Wait, no. I don't find that fun at all. Hmmm. Most of Bungie's decisions going forward I disagree with. On top of the lies/ineptitude towards certain things. We couldn't get ritual weapons this season cause they needed all hands on deck to copy/paste D1's Trials in a incredibly unenjoyable way into D2. They can't bring back factions cause of some dumb voice line reason, yet Eververse is constantly updated. Weird.

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        • This is a great post. Even if you disagree, the layout was very nice, and it was easy to read. Thank you.

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        • 100% correct, especially the artifact!! I noticed that last season. The game isn't interesting atm. Maybe if enough people quit, they will change it. But at this point, I think its too late to turn D2 around. Forsaken was very good.... and then it just died off from there. Well written post.

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        • Word ... simply Word !

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          • Devs at bungie are lazy as hell, stomp is stupid strong, the nightmares in legendary lost sectors regenerate and blink so fast you cant hit em. Reloading weapons is slower than a snail. Your player base has complained until they turned blue all to DMG spewing awe it's not that bad is it while the crap stays that way. What's your current daily player count, it's got to be low cause matchmaking for events is taking longer but hay didnt destiny 2 make 300 million in 2019. You are tone deaf as hell and your going to do nothing until your cash stops coming in

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          • Yes. This post is well-contructed and to the point.

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          • The problem for me is the seasons are coming across as pointless. Bungee have introduced Shadowkeep and then with these seasons have veered off in a totally different direction to the story of Shadowkeep. Each season should be an enhancement of the story they are trying to tell. If we’re going to go up against Savathun, then use each season to tell more of the story, run missions to give us a back story. In readiness. What the hell is this seasons story about the Almighty got to do with the price of fish? I absolutely hated the previous season, about Saint 14 and being lost in time. The Undying Mind finale was just embarrassing

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            • I agree with a good portion of your post except for the part where we are meant to be god like, running over enemies isnt fun for me personally i like it when they take a few hits to go down. Its why i wish they would implement a world difficulty setting like in diablo 3 so the people who wanna blast through like a god can do so where as people who want a challenge can get one. If they were to do it i wouldnt even want them to adjust how much loot you get for the extra difficulty instead they could increase xp gains, stats on armour and masterwork level of weapons. That way people wouldnt feel forced into playing on a difficulty they didnt like and everyone would fall into their own levels and enjoy the game the way they want. If people were in a fire team the leader would have control over difficulty for the group so everyone experienced the same activity and also so you dont run into a situation where 2 people are set to max difficulty and 1 isnt so the 1 can farm kills for drops for the other 2.

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              • Thank you sir for keeping it constructive and for keeping it 100% about the state of the game. And the reasons I stopped playing Destiny 2. Forsaken was my last purchase in a expansion. And after reading your statements getting ShadowKeep is not a priority. I'll periodically check in to see if things change until then I'll keep playing my other games.

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                • That isn’t the definition of fun. Fun is also subjective. Your opinion of fun is not gospel. I still have fun playing Destiny. Not as much fun as I could be having or maintaining that fun for as long as I could be. In my opinion, this game needs to be more challenging in a way that not necessarily means making mundane tasks harder, but giving activities more creative adversity. Right now the game isn’t hard or challenging. It’s just that tasks are long and drawn out. Having a check list and to do list. Hitting a certain power to beat an activity, and then the activity becomes too easy and mundane. There needs to be more creative and imaginative activities, loot, and story.

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                  • Easy doesn't equal fun for all of us, challenge equals fun. Challenge is optional, go do activities where you are properly leveled without modifiers. You don't deserve better loot without the challenge. You say light doesn't matter then complain about being underleveled at the beginning of the season? Every MMO type game requires a power grind to complete new content. This bounty thing blows my mind, just pick up the bounties for things you are doing in game, it's easy. Nobody is telling you to do every bounty every day. A separate sandbox has its pros and cons, I play all of the game so I like my weapons and abilities being consistent. No pvp nerf has ever significantly changed the pve experience. Did they slow us down by a few seconds....maybe but nothing was ever more difficult in D1 or D2. Even the Pve nerfs just force a change in loadouts nothing more. We are still installing killing strike bosses and one phasing raid bosses. The seasonal model is much better than nothing. People tend to forget that we had nothing in d1 after taken king and nothing after rise of iron. The seasons are filler don't buy them if you don't like them. Btw there are 2 sets of seasonal armor and 2 sets of weapons so there is a chase. Lastly you could easily spend more on lunch than what it cost you to buy a season, what do you expect for that price tag?

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                    • Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 4/2/2020 9:20:38 AM
                      I like a lot of the things you said but I do believe you missed the mark on some of it. For instance, this isn't nor has it ever been power fantasy. We are not God like beings. We are agents of a God like being born to fight evil God like beings. The NPCs aren't impressed because we're God like, because they too are guardians. They're impressed because we keep going up against crap that kills other guardians and not only survive but win. If we're all godlike, why do so many of us permanently die? I mean in Savathuns Song 2 guardians died right there by hive ritual and several more went down before you got there. Murdered permanently by red bars. Cayde went down because a bunch of red bars overwhelmed him and then the yellow bars came in to clean up the mess. Maybe you just don't give our opponents enough credit lol. Plus, Bungie has to do something to introduce challenge because they keep adding in bonkers guns. We're never supposed to have an easy time of a prestige raid or the higher light nightfalls. They are SUPPOSED to be hilariously hard. In fact, in the whole of destiny, we've never had a defense stat. We get faster, smarter, and our gear does more things, but our HP never goes up, our defense stat never goes up. It actually doesn't make sense to say that there are no red bars capable of damaging us. In any case, D1 was tough too. I logged in and played recently and even at max light nightfall adds still hurt a lot. In terms of difficulty via high damage, the game hasn't changed at all since its first iteration. It's actually been very consistent. We're fighting evil and they're not push overs when you get to the harder, endgame difficulties. However, I do agree that some things deserve more XP. Raids, for instance, should grant more than any PvE activity at least (imho, more than any activity). The game leans heavily on bounties to drive people to talk to NPCs but yeah, bounties being a primary source of XP is weird. I also agree with most of the rest of the stuff too.

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                    • Edited by WatchTheWatcher: 4/1/2020 1:52:26 AM
                      This is a shit show of an RPG. More XP should equal higher light levels should equal more powerful abilities and more exclusive gear. With an in game economy that allows access to more exclusive trading posts as materials and XP increase. Bungie - I know you guyz & girlz are nerdz and get this. I know you do. Yet somehow you’ve managed to create an unrewarding game that doesn’t allow player abilities to increase with XP and doesn’t allow playerz to buy cool shit when they grind materialz. Therefore customerz don’t feel valued and don’t feel like the game is worth their time. Here are my suggestions: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/255632354/0/0 The End.

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                      • Good post. Here’s an upvote.

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                      • Stop giving us blue gear! Give us rewarding loot for playing the game!!!

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                      • bump

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                      • I really like this post, agree completely. The bit about "power fantasy" is spot on. I would also like to point out one thing about separate pve and PvP sandboxes, yes they should've seperated them completely a long time ago, but it's not always PvP that gets things nerfed. Sometimes, although it's likely a more rare occurrence, PvE gets things nerfed that negatively impacts PvP. A perfect example would be the recent nerfs to snipers.

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                      • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 4/2/2020 1:02:28 AM
                        I completely agree. The power fantasy is nonexistent at this point. Whoever is making decisions now has to be one of those gamers that thinks nothing is worth doing unless it’s arduous and feels like work/chores. I play game to AVOID that feeling. I don’t want it in my games. This game has become a perpetual climb of never feeling like said grind mattered all that much. On top of feeling like work/chores because apparently nothing is worth doing or having unless it comes with some supposed sense of accomplishment. Which is hilarious because again, they keep players weak and take away from players when they feel we are too powerful. What happened to games being fun? What happened to running around in a fun world and doing what we want to earn what we want? It’s SO rigid and impractical at this point that I’m on the edge of just dropping the game entirely. I’d rather come back to do an easy but fun experience 8 weeks in a row and wait that long just to earn something than do it once where it becomes this 3-8 hour tedious trial and error experience. That’s not fun. That’s work. It’s such a shame to see such a great fictional universe/story squandered on this punishing, tedious, experience that feels like work/chores and that also never feels particularly rewarding.

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                      • We lost a lot defense from Masterwork armor and people have less Resilience and Recovery now, and they removed most of our defensive's when using our super. So yeah we became a lot weaker defense wise but it's not a change in how power works.

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                        • [quote]We as Guardians are supposed to be god-like[/quote] If that's what you want, go play Minecraft in creative mode. There are some of us here who want a challenge in our games. We don't all want to nuke every boss with the flick of a switch.

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                          • Yup I logged in was doing one of those new lost sectors and thought man you know what this is the opposite of fun. Turned it off and moved on. Now there is some serious good game design. When you have people just turn off the pve activity.

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                          • We should only feel like gods when trying to do really old missions, right now for example, you can be 1000 light and if you try to do the thorn quest you will get blasted instantly even though you are 200-300 light above the required light. Other than that I do want to challenge myself with the current challenges we have at 1000 light and up. What I’m saying is, remove power scaling!

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                          • The [b]Artefact[/b] & the Seasonal ‘content’ inc FOMO attitude from Bungie, can just f*** right off!

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                            • Edited by Disciple4Christ4: 4/1/2020 3:49:53 PM
                              Reduce all xp gains by 75% That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard Edit: fixed

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